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Seized 447

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cedavis

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 23
Location: Malvern, PA

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: Seized 447

Well, it finally happened.  Yesterday, while going enjoying a late afternoon / sunset flight, I noticed two items slightly out of the ordinary:



While climbing out, the engine CHT's were higher then normal, approaching 400.  When I throttled back, they dropped to around 300.  This is still about 25-50 degrees higher then normal.  Also, there was a slight "burp" in the engine, which lasted just a second.  Other then that,  every this was normal. 



This morning, I returned for some early morning flying.   CHT's we once again higher then normal, but well under  the 400 red line.  After a quick landing to adjust rudder trim, I took off again.  Once again, CHT's went back up to 400.   This time, the engine hick-uped, and dropped power on climb out.    Immediately suspecting a seizure, I throttled back to idle and did a 180 and landed back on the runway.  Total time from initiating take off to throttle back was probably 30 seconds.   



When I throttled back, the CHT's continued to go up probably to around 500.   Other then noticing, I didn't get much details, as I was focused on flying the plane and making what was essentially a deadstick landing (one of my  better ones...)   



EHT's were normal, 850-900, climbing to 1100 - 1200 if left in an extended 4000 rpm descent.   Air temps were around 70.   



Other obligations prevented me from doing any investigation, but I strongly believe it was a seizure.  Then only clue I have is that I noticed  the cooling fan was not turning when I pulled the engine through (after the seizure).  Did the fan lock, or belt break?  I don't know yet.  Did it fail and cause the problem, or did the heat cause it to fail, resulting in the 500 CHT?  Or did the seizure simply become worse, resulting in the 500 CHT's?   



The engine has approximately 120 hrs.  I pulled the exhaust at 50 hrs and the rings and pistons visible were loose and spotless.  The engine had new gas and has always flown with Penzoil Aircooled.



Not much to do at this point, other then install the "spare" 477.  Other then this detail, Lancaster County remains beautiful from 1000 feet. 

Chuck    



  [quote][b]

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: Seized 447

In a message dated 7/22/2007 9:40:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ceddavis(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Then    only clue I have is that I noticed  the cooling fan was not turning when    I pulled the engine through (after the seizure).  Did the fan lock, or    belt break? 	


 

 Hi Chuck,

  

 It would appear that the fan belt either broke or was slipping (check the  fan holding nut to see if it is tight) for the fan not to turn with the  crankshaft.  That would result in getting the high CHT, as no cooling air  would be coming across the heads.   

 Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive





Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Seized 447

The belt breaking would cause High CHT's, and probably overheat the engine.   



An overheated engine like you are describing would not cause the belt to fail or stop working.   Its a good idea to check that belt from time to time, for tension, slippage, and wear. 



That belt failure is going to be expensive for you, but just be glad it did not result in any damage to your plane or you.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Seized 447

At 05:12 PM 7/24/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>



 The belt breaking would cause High CHT's, and probably overheat the engine.   



 An overheated engine like you are describing would not cause the belt to fail or stop working.   Its a good idea to check that belt from time to time, for tension, slippage, and wear. 



 That belt failure is going to be expensive for you, but just be glad it did not result in any damage to your plane or you.



 Mike 	




 Beauford Tuton described a similar problem with his 447 fan assembly. Something about the weld coming loose. 

 I can't find it in the achives. 

     [quote][b]

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: Seized 447

Possum, Sir:

 That problem was with the weld on the recoil  starter, not with the fan...  my little

 "overheat" was gummed up rings during the 447 Nazi  Carbon Festival, Spring of '05,

 it was...    led directly to the  "green dot" piston epiphany over at the Lockwood Castle...

 As I recollect, a minor part malfunction  with the famous Bing Brothers apparatus brought 

 about that particular episode...

 (same engine though.... gotta love them there  447's... real character builders)

 Anyone care for another glass of  Seafoam...?

 Do not archive

  

 Beauford

 FF076 / N173BW

 Brandon, FL

  

 [quote]   ---

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: Seized 447

At 07:59 PM 7/24/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Possum, Sir:

 That problem was with the weld on the recoil starter, not with the fan...  my little

 "overheat" was gummed up rings during the 447 Nazi Carbon Festival, 

 

 (same engine though.... gotta love them there 447's... real character builders)

 	


 They are "character builders" that's for sure. Mine used to hunt like a bird dog

 any where under 5400 rpm. It was the old point ignition system though. 

 It is amazing to me what a difference a dual carb 503 made in my life. 

 I don't know if it's because of the two carburetors or just because it's a bigger engine

 (the extra 10 hp come in handy too). Still set up like it cam out of the box.

 Mine just stays put unless you pull the nose up or down, of course. 

 Have 738 hours now - and I know it needs a rebuild, but

 I think it'll make it to 800 hours - then I'll throw it away and buy a new one. 

 I can still get'um wholesale, so it's worth it just for the new muffler and shiny carbs.     [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Seized 447

[quote="possums(at)bellsouth.net"]At 07:59 PM 7/24/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Possum, Sir:

 That problem was with the weld on the recoil starter, not with the fan...  my little

 "overheat" was gummed up rings during the 447 Nazi Carbon Festival, 

 

 (same engine though.... gotta love them there 447's... real character builders)

 	


 They are "character builders" that's for sure. Mine used to hunt like a bird dog

 any where under 5400 rpm. It was the old point ignition system though. 

 It is amazing to me what a difference a dual carb 503 made in my life. 

 I don't know if it's because of the two carburetors or just because it's a bigger engine

 (the extra 10 hp come in handy too). Still set up like it cam out of the box.

 Mine just stays put unless you pull the nose up or down, of course. 

 Have 738 hours now - and I know it needs a rebuild, but

 I think it'll make it to 800 hours - then I'll throw it away and buy a new one. 

 I can still get'um wholesale, so it's worth it just for the new muffler and shiny carbs.      	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




FWIW, the 503 gives the wandering midrange RPM too when it's configured with a single carb.... it may be slightly better with the 503, but it'll still give you fits. I was never able to cure it on my early 503 that had a single carb.



Sure agree about the dual carbs, though, when I finally got my dual carb motor it was rock steady... heaven....



I loved my 447, though the single ignition had me even more attentive about those landing spots 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: Seized 447

At 10:09 PM 7/24/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >  (same engine though.... gotta love them there 447's... real 

 character builders)

 >

  They are "character builders" that's for sure.

FWIW, the 503 gives the wandering midrange RPM too when it's 

configured with a single carb.... it may be slightly better with the 

503, but it'll still give you fits. I was never able to cure it on 

my early 503 that had a single carb.

Sure agree about the dual carbs, though, when I finally got my dual 

carb motor it was rock steady... heaven....

LS

Well ...there you go - that's the answer - put another carburetor on 

it and be done with it!

See, it's not so hard when we put our heads together. Problem solved!

And that's how we do it right here in the good ole USA.

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: Seized UL II-02 repair questions

I was just taking the cuyuna UL II-02 out of my Kolb Ultrastar last evening and preparing to put in the spare Cuyuna 430 that came with the deal.



The UL II-02 had a probable seizure on the #1 (PTO side) cylinder.



Examining the piston and cast iron liner its amazing how the piston top by the exhaust port had melted and eroded and that whole exhaust port side of the piston just lost its metal onto the liner wall making one hell of a mess.



The rings were intact but frozen in that side of the piston.



I was trying to dtermine if I could hone the liner smooth again, but it just looks like an awefull mess and I think I better replace the liner.



Anyone know how to remove a cylinder liner from a Cuyuna UL II-02?



When replacing Pistons, is that normally done in pairs or can I do just the seized one?



Ray

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: Seized 447

Ray



  The ugly mess of aluminum on the wall needs to be etched away by using

muratic acid before you get too concerned about the liner.. That will

give you a better view of the damage the rings may have done ..



  Careful...I use long q tips and eye protection.. Herb 

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:38:36 -0700 "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com> writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I was just taking the cuyuna UL II-02 out of my Kolb Ultrastar last 

 evening and preparing to put in the spare Cuyuna 430 that came with 

 the deal.

 

 The UL II-02 had a probable seizure on the #1 (PTO side) cylinder.

 

 Examining the piston and cast iron liner its amazing how the piston 

 top by the exhaust port had melted and eroded and that whole exhaust 

 port side of the piston just lost its metal onto the liner wall 

 making one hell of a mess.

 

 The rings were intact but frozen in that side of the piston.

 

 I was trying to dtermine if I could hone the liner smooth again, but 

 it just looks like an awefull mess and I think I better replace the 

 liner.

 

 Anyone know how to remove a cylinder liner from a Cuyuna UL II-02?

 

 When replacing Pistons, is that normally done in pairs or can I do 

 just the seized one?

 

 Ray

 

 --------

 Ray

 Riverside County, CA

 

 Do Not Archive

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125885#125885

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Seized 447

Thanks for that tip about the acid.



I was thinking that the cylinder liner would be a lot harder than the aluminum and is probably servicable after removing the aluminum and honing a bit.



Now I just have to find the acid.....Home Depot carries it?



Looking at the cylinder shows the rings very recessed into the piston....probably melted into the piston allowing the piston skirt to hit the liner and the resulting mess.



Im optimistic that the rings were not able to contact the liner and do much damage.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: Seized 447

Hi Ray



    Building supplies companies... Used to clean brick etc..   Etches

aluminum quickly.. Does not hurt the steel liner.. Herb 

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:18:46 -0700 "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com> writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Thanks for that tip about the acid.

 

 I was thinking that the cylinder liner would be a lot harder than 

 the aluminum and is probably servicable after removing the aluminum 

 and honing a bit.

 

 Now I just have to find the acid.....Home Depot carries it?

 

 --------

 Ray

 Riverside County, CA

 

 Do Not Archive

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125919#125919

Wade Lawicki

Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Nashville Tn.

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Seized 447

Ray,

       Herbs right , you can buy the acid at home depot or a pool store. I take the jug off before I acid so I don't drip any in the case, you have to take it off anyways to hone or replace. try not to get it on ANY aluminum you don't want damaged.  It will stop foaming when all the aluminum is gone from cylinder.



                                                            Fly Safe,

                                                                          Wade

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Seized 447

I found Muriatic Acid at the Do-it-center.



Well, I managed to disolve all the aluminum from the liner and found it looks pretty smooth and clean underneath that mess.



There were a couple bits that did not come off with the acid and does not foam when I apply more.



I think it might have been some carbon.



I managed to gently scrape it off with a knife however in one area and have a bit more to do just below the exhaust port.



After this I intend to finish the cylinder with a cylinder hone putting in the 60 degree cross hatch with the hone.



The piston that seized was at the PTO end so I think I ought to remove some of the cooling fins on the cylinder head next to the fan to make it of the "Flow Though" type to get more air to the rear cylinder head.



I noticed that they have these "flow though" heads for sale so it must help some.



Any suggestions, opinions or comments are welcome.



Ray

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

bklebon(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: Seized 447

I'm getting into this discussion a little late, but having worked with muriatic acid on swimming pools, make sure you are in a well ventilated area (preferably outside) and upwind. Don't get any on you!

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Seized 447

Fortunately I followed everyone advice and handled the muriatic acid with goggles and latex gloves. The fumes are nasty so I did it outside and was also aware of the Hydrogen gas fumes flamability so I keep the smokers away.



I soaked small bits of paper towel in the acid then layed them on top of the aluminum and watched it bubble away into nothing.



Took a little while and multiple applications but after probably 30 minutes it was all gone except for what looks like some carbon on the cylinder wall.



Gently scraped that carbon stuff off with a knife.



I still need to find the right hone and hone the liner.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

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