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ARS policy

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barry(at)flyredstar.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: ARS policy

Gang,



I am not trying to beat a dead horse.  However, I need to clear up 

information so that ARS policies are accurately represented...

 	  Quote: 	
		   If a person pays his/her money and shows up at ARS

 without a flight suit, will you refuse or permit him/her to train? If

 you permit him/her, then there is no flight suit requirement and I

 retract all I have said. If you refuse then the point is moot.


	


All Red Star is a unique event in many ways.  However, we do use FAST 

and RPA standards for our formation training.  If someone elects to not 

wear a flight suit, that is their decision, and that's fine.  ARS and 

the RPA do not prevent anyone from receiving training, that's the 

individual's choice...



Brian, please address any further comments to me on this off line.  

Thanks.



ANNOUNCMENT:



ARS V has confirmed a new home.  Porterville, CA (KPTV) is a fabulous 

location located on the southeastern side of the central valley.   Due 

to scheduling conflicts this year's dates are going to be May 3-7.  

More details to follow shortly....



Cheers,



Barry



Barry Hancock

Event Director

All Red Star

(949) 300-5510

www.allredstar.com

"A Unique Aviation Experience".

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N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: ARS policy

In a message dated 2/21/2006 9:48:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  barry(at)flyredstar.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  If    someone elects to not 

wear a flight suit, that is their decision, and    that's fine.  ARS and 

the RPA do not prevent anyone from receiving    training, that's the 

individual's choice...

	


 

 BARRY?, Please answer the question! This sounds like Bubba Clinton I DID  NOT HAVE

 %^$ WITH HIM OR HER!!!    

 Tom Elliott  

CJ-6 NX63727

Sandy Valley  NV

3L2

702-723-1223

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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: ARS policy

N13472(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 2/21/2006 9:48:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 barry(at)flyredstar.org writes:

 

     If someone elects to not

     wear a flight suit, that is their decision, and that's fine.  ARS and

     the RPA do not prevent anyone from receiving training, that's the

     individual's choice...

 

 BARRY?, Please answer the question! This sounds like Bubba Clinton I DID

 NOT HAVE

 %^$ WITH HIM OR HER!!! 


	


He did answer me. His answer was sent in private. It was that ARS

supports the RPA policy requiring flight suits and that it is the choice

of the individual whether or not to wear a flight suit and receive

training. Therefore, if one wishes to receive RPS/FAST sanctioned

training at ARS, one must wear a flight suit.



The key point here is that the organization may make whatever rules it

pleases and that individuals have the choice whether or not they want to

belong to the organization. As much as I dislike the policy, I have to

agree with the right of RPA to make it. The organization has formed

based on a concept of democracy and the majority appears to support the

flightsuit requirement. As a member I disagree and have made my opinion

known.



Ernie and others have accused me of trying to cram my views down

everyone else's throat but I believe that it is a significant point that

it is the function of democracy to do just that -- to allow the majority

to dictate to the minority. It is assumed that the majority is right.

Here in the United States democracy was modified by the Constitution

with its Bill of Rights that attempts to protect the minority against

the tyranny of the majority but RPA is not the United States and does

not have to live by the Bill of Rights and protect the minority.



I agree now that it is perfectly acceptable for RPA to do whatever it

wants to do. I just happen to disagree with some of RPA's policy. I

believe that attempting to force people into a mold by wearing a uniform

(and the flight suit is a uniform that is justified under the guise of

"safety") is divisive and potentially fractionates our community.



But it is their right to do and I support that right. But then, don't

ask me to support the organization.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: ARS policy

Brian,

So if you disagree with a law or government policy, are you going to renonuce

your citizenship?

Nobody will ever agree with everything an organization does. What you have to

look at, is the majority of the goals consistant with your beliefs and goals?

Fly Safe

John Fischer

California City

 	  Quote: 	

N13472(at)aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/21/2006 9:48:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> barry(at)flyredstar.org writes:

> 

>     If someone elects to not

>     wear a flight suit, that is their decision, and that's fine.  ARS and

 	  Quote: 	
		  >     the RPA do not prevent anyone from receiving training, that's the

>     individual's choice...

> 

> BARRY?, Please answer the question! This sounds like Bubba Clinton I DID

 	  Quote: 	
		  > NOT HAVE

> %^$ WITH HIM OR HER!!! 

He did answer me. His answer was sent in private. It was that ARS

supports the RPA policy requiring flight suits and that it is the choice

of the individual whether or not to wear a flight suit and receive

training. Therefore, if one wishes to receive RPS/FAST sanctioned

training at ARS, one must wear a flight suit.

The key point here is that the organization may make whatever rules it

pleases and that individuals have the choice whether or not they want to

belong to the organization. As much as I dislike the policy, I have to

agree with the right of RPA to make it. The organization has formed

based on a concept of democracy and the majority appears to support the

flightsuit requirement. As a member I disagree and have made my opinion

known.

Ernie and others have accused me of trying to cram my views down

everyone else's throat but I believe that it is a significant point that

it is the function of democracy to do just that -- to allow the majority

to dictate to the minority. It is assumed that the majority is right.

Here in the United States democracy was modified by the Constitution

with its Bill of Rights that attempts to protect the minority against

the tyranny of the majority but RPA is not the United States and does

not have to live by the Bill of Rights and protect the minority.

I agree now that it is perfectly acceptable for RPA to do whatever it

wants to do. I just happen to disagree with some of RPA's policy. I

believe that attempting to force people into a mold by wearing a uniform

(and the flight suit is a uniform that is justified under the guise of

"safety") is divisive and potentially fractionates our community.

But it is their right to do and I support that right. But then, don't

ask me to support the organization.

-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: ARS policy

fish(at)aviation-tech.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Brian,

 

 So if you disagree with a law or government policy, are you going to renonuce

 your citizenship?


	


Well, I think we are talking different things here. Whether or not I

choose to support RPA is a bit different than citizenship, don't you

think? You are suggesting that one should not dissent when one disagrees

and that any dissent requires one to renounce citizenship. I hold that

the United States was formed upon the basis of dissent. Remember, the

"patriots" of 1776 were dissenters rebelling against the legitimate,

established government of England. Today we label the people who

supported and remained loyal to the established government "royalists"

or "loyalists". It is interesting how the meaning of words drift with time.



In looking at various governments I have not found one that is better

than of the United States as defined by the Constitution and Bill of

Rights. OTOH, I am discomforted by the erosion of individual rights in

the US under the guise of "security" (DHS, TSA, etc.) and "safety" (FAA,

EPA, etc.).



But that is not the purpose of this list. Let's just drop it. I have

said my piece.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Nobody will ever agree with everything an organization does. What you have to

 look at, is the majority of the goals consistant with your beliefs and goals?


	


I guess I happen to disagree. Let's leave it at that.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: ARS policy

Brian,

Isn't that a bit contradictory?  BARRY - If someone elects to not wear a 

flight suit, that is their decision, and that's fine.  ARS and the RPA do 

not prevent anyone from receiving training.  BRIAN - Therefore, if one 

wishes to receive RPS/FAST sanctioned training at ARS, one must wear a 

flight suit.



What am I missing?

Dennis

---

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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:51 am Post subject: ARS policy

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Brian,

 Isn't that a bit contradictory?  BARRY - If someone elects to not wear a

 flight suit, that is their decision, and that's fine.  ARS and the RPA

 do not prevent anyone from receiving training.  BRIAN - Therefore, if

 one wishes to receive RPS/FAST sanctioned training at ARS, one must wear

 a flight suit.


	


Barry's comment was, I think, misinterpreted. If you do not wear a

flight suit you will not be allowed to train at RPA/FAST training

events. Barry was saying that they do not *force* you to wear a flight

suit and that is, technically, true.



I have since said I agree with Barry. RPA may require anything it wants

to and I get to choose whether I participate or not. The choice is mine.

RPA does not force me to do anything.



 	  Quote: 	
		   What am I missing?


	


I think it was just a matter of sematics.



I support RPA's right to make the policy. I just don't support the policy.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: ARS policy

If you go to TRARON for CAF training the same rule applies. We aren't

bitching about that though just RPA.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/22/2006 9:45:25 AM

 Subject: Re: ARS policy



 

<dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>
	


[quote]

 Brian,

 Isn't that a bit contradictory?  BARRY - If someone elects to not wear a 

 flight suit, that is their decision, and that's fine.  ARS and the RPA do 

 not prevent anyone from receiving training.  BRIAN - Therefore, if one 

 wishes to receive RPS/FAST sanctioned training at ARS, one must wear a 

 flight suit.



 What am I missing?

 Dennis

 ---

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Barry Hancock

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Chino, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: Re: ARS policy

Gang,



Brian has correctly stated ARS's position on formation training.  It is a RPA sanctioned FAST training event and abides by it's policies.  Flight suits and parachutes are required....see the RPA FAST Policy and recommended equipment at www.flyredstar.org/documents/rpa_policy_changes.pdf



Looking forward to seeing you all at ARS V!



Cheers,



Barry



PS  These forums are great...thanks for the push, Tim.

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_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
www.cj6.com

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