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rudder repair

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jlno7(at)aim.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: rudder repair

There is some damage to the tail fuselage to my Kitfox One.  The tubing is bent in the under belly near the rudder and the rudder is bent and the tubing is worn.  My AP noticed it and says that the rudder needs to be repaired or replaced and a new tube welded in to replace the bent one and the rudder will need a new tub and fabric.  The AP doesn't feel qualified to do the welding.  Where do I go from here?  Is there anyone  in the Green Bay Wisconsin area who you might know who would do this repair?  

 

 Jerry 

   More new features than ever.  Check out the new AIM(R) Mail! 

  [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: rudder repair

At 03:50 PM 11/28/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Is there anyone  in the Green Bay Wisconsin area who you might know who would do this repair?  	


 I don't know if EAA wants us to do this, but I pulled a list of Wisconsin Technical Counselors from their web site. I don't see any in Green Bay, but maybe you can locate one who can lead you to an appropriate repair person. I tried to find A&Ps, but all I got was supermarkets. 



 Guy



 

 Dale H. Jorgensen-Algoma, WI

 Home - (920) 487-3881

 Work - (920) 360-4830

 Bennett A. Ludtke-Beaver Dam, WI

 Home - (920) 885-2480

 Michael J. Gaffney-Briggsville, WI

 Home - (608) 981-2238

 Work - (608) 742-4636

 Edward J. Simpson-Camp Lake, WI

 Home - (847) 395-4549

 Work - (262) 889-8187

 David A. Juckem-Chilton, WI

 Home - (920) 849-4398

 Work - (920) 849-9151

 Douglas C. Apland-Chippewa Falls, WI

 Home - (715) 723-5919

 Glenn W. Gauger-Delavan, WI

 Home - (262) 740-2413

 Work - (262) 534-6315

 Ronald G. Scott-East Troy, WI

 Home - (262) 642-7423

 Alan E. Nicoson-East Troy, WI

 Home - (262) 565-6427

 Work - (262) 215-5055

 Roberta A. Hegy-East Troy, WI

 Home - (262) 470-6181

 Work - (414) 944-5700

 Paul B. Buss-Eland, WI

 Home - (715) 253-2490

 Joe Schumacher-Florence, WI

 Home - (715) 528-4489

 Work - (715) 528-4489

 Mark T. Schroeder-Fond du Lac, WI

 Home - (920) 923-2711

 Work - (920) 921-7845

 John F. LeClercq-Forestville, WI

 Home - (920) 559-7195

 Work - (920) 559-7195

 Fred J. Keip-Franksville, WI

 Home - (262) 835-7714

 Work - (262) 636-5828

 Pat Spanaus-Hartland, WI

 Home - (262) 538-0859

 Work - (262) 367-7550

 Kent Bummert-Holmen, WI

 Home - (608) 526-9464

 Work - (608) 385-0994

 Archie H. Henkelmann-Janesville, WI

 Home - (608) 752-5474

 Dave F. LeVoy-Marshfield, WI

 Home - (715) 676-2282

 Work - (715) 687-3133

 Allan O. Checky Jr-Merrimac, WI

 Home - (608) 643-5151

 Work - (608) 393-0773

 Scott D. Jones-Milwaukee, WI

 Home - (414) 466-1860

 Work - (414) 461-6013

 Frederick F. Flood-Milwaukee, WI

 Home - (414) 282-7502

 Jeff Point-Milwaukee, WI

 Home - (414) 329-0054

 Work - (414) 915-9173

 Michael Weeden-Monroe, WI

 Home - (608) 329-6652

 William Tromblay-Mukwonago, WI

 Home - (414) 313-5542

 Work - (414) 313-5542

 Greg J. Klemp-Neshkoro, WI

 Home - (920) 293-8089

 Tracy Buttles-New London, WI

 Home - (920) 982-2509

 Work - (920) 982-2509

 Tom Seversen-New London, WI

 Home - (920) 982-2203

 Peter Tallarita-New Richmond, WI

 Home - (715) 246-9143

 Work - (612) 414-9505

 Charles M. Allen-Onalaska, WI

 Home - (608) 779-4899

 Daniel Dudley-Oregon, WI

 Home - (608) 835-8931

 Work - (608) 263-2359

 Joseph B. Norris-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 688-2977

 Work - (920) 426-6806

 Norman A. Petersen-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 426-2217

 Earl Lawrence-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 233-3972

 Work - (920) 426-6522

 Lyle M. Forsgren-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 589-6501

 George Rotter-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 231-6446

 Ron Wagner-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 303-6193

 Work - (920) 426-6122

 Gary H. Buettner-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 236-8704

 Work - (920) 426-4854

 Mark Gerlach-Oshkosh, WI

 Home - (920) 231-6916

 Work - (920) 233-3350

 Steve Johnson-Pardeeville, WI

 Home - (608) 429-3348

 Paul McAllister-Pewaukee, WI

 Home - (262) 695-7624

 Scott K. Cater-Racine, WI

 Home - (262) 639-3559

 Work - (262) 652-4444

 Larry Melau-Rhinelander, WI

 Home - (715) 282-6462

 Douglas P. Karis-Rice Lake, WI

 Home - (715) 234-7540

 Work - (715) 234-7540

 Richard Marr-River Falls, WI

 Home - (715) 425-0262

 Work - (612) 751-6165

 Joseph C. Weisbrod-Rosholt, WI

 Home - (715) 677-3573

 Ralph Skorupa-Salem, WI

 Home - (262) 889-4438

 Work - (815) 459-4405

 Alan R. White-Superior, WI

 Home - (715) 399-8564

 Work - (715) 399-8564

 Richard H. Pedersen-Tony, WI

 Home - (715) 532-6276

 William M. Rewey-Verona, WI

 Home - (608) 833-5839

 Raleigh H. Illgen-Watertown, WI

 Home - (920) 699-2483

 Bonnie Eales Jensen-Waukesha, WI

 Home - (262) 574-0429

 Work - (262) 894-4840

 Herbert Statz-Waunakee, WI

 Home - (608) 849-4675

 David J. Conrad-Wausau, WI

 Home - (715) 845-7545

 Work - (715) 842-4371

 Richard Carter-Wauwatosa, WI

 Home - (414) 476-0705

 Carl E. Schultz-Wind Lake, WI

 Home - (262) 895-6194

 Albert L. Barger-Windsor, WI

 Home - (608) 846-1941

 Work - (608) 836-1711

 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: rudder repair

I bet you could find an EAA chapter around green bay that could help you do it your self.  That is one of the best parts of an experimental. No A & P required.  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan

 Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 6:41 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: rudder repair  

  

   

At 03:50 PM 11/28/2007, you wrote:

 

   

Is there anyone  in the Green   Bay Wisconsin area who you might know who would do this repair?    



 I don't know if EAA wants us to do this, but I pulled a list of Wisconsin Technical Counselors from their web site. I don't see any in Green Bay, but maybe you can locate one who can lead you to an appropriate repair person. I tried to find A&Ps, but all I got was supermarkets. 

 

 

   [quote] [b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: rudder repair

I would think that being that close to the EAA  "Mecca" there should be lots of good aircraft tubing welders around.  I  suspect you'll get some good hits right here though.

 What happened to it?

 Deke

 NE MI, S5, 370TT

 [quote]   ---

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: rudder repair

Remember you are working with chromoly tubing...its takes a slightly different welding technique than regular steel.  Having said this, any good welder will know what filler material to use.  Should be a pretty easy fix.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: Re: rudder repair

It's pretty much a guarantee that any decent local welding shop, that 

can do acetylene or tig can do a more than acceptable job for you. You

can buy tubing from AC Spruce, and use RG-45 or RG-60 welding rod.



I wouldn't get to worried about welding it, 4130 is VERY easy to weld

well.



Regards,

Jeff

flier

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: Re: rudder repair

Thinwall 4130 is not nearly as forgiving as mild steel to weld.  Needs to be done in an absolute breeze free environment.  For TIG ER70S-2 filler is recommended.  Post weld annealing is always debated but I always run a torch over TIGed chromoly.  Nice thing about the rudder is aside from the spar it's not all that complex or highly loaded so just about anyone decent with a torch (TIG or OA) should be able to even build a new rudder for a Kitfox....



Regards,



Ted

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: rudder repair

Ted -



The only thing I've ever welded was thinwall 4130  So I guess I really

can't compare.



Regards,

Jeff

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: Re: rudder repair

 	  Quote: 	
		   For TIG ER70S-2 filler is recommended. Post weld annealing is always debated but I always run a torch over TIGed chromoly. 	




The proper term is  "normalizing"  not annealing. 



Heat to a dull red and slowly pull  torch away. A no draft t shop is critical as even faster air cooling can cause brittleness. 



A good fit is very important  for excellent welds.   TIG or oxy/acetylene is good  although I do prefer the latter.

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: Re: rudder repair

Well, if you consider that Skystar just blasted most of them together via,

MIG, as does American Champion I think the fear of cracks is for the

most part grossly exagerrated. Nothing I ever welded has cracks, and 

that includes all the weld's I practiced on when I later beat on them 

with a hammer.



I know that they can crack, and there is a lot of literature about how

to avoid cracks. But I think in real life, for the most part if you acetylene

weld 4130 odds are pretty good, you'll never see any cracks.



I think more importantly is just pay attention to getting a nice quality

weld. This is probably 99.9% of the strength anyway.



Jeff

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: rudder repair

Jeff,  Cooling too fast will cause crystallization. 



I would say that the fit of the joint it very important as well if not critical to ensure a strong joint. 



Welding -well anyone can weld right?   No , not really. 



Acetylene welding you might not see cracks but you might find a hardened area around the weld or the weld itself and that could lead to issues down the road.



Welding .025 to .050 4130 can be very challenging for many, I would not suggest anyone use a MIG on it unless they are very good with MIG, thin wall tubing and different welding techniques like stitch welding.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Well, if you consider that Skystar just blasted most of them together via, 

MIG, as does American Champion I think the fear of cracks is for the 

most part grossly exaggerated. Nothing I ever welded has cracks, and 

that includes all the weld's I practiced on when I later beat on them 

with a hammer. 



I know that they can crack, and there is a lot of literature about how 

to avoid cracks. But I think in real life, for the most part if you acetylene 

weld 4130 odds are pretty good, you'll never see any cracks. 



I think more importantly is just pay attention to getting a nice quality 

weld. This is probably 99.9% of the strength anyway. 



Jeff

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: rudder repair

Based on my observations after viewing my destroyed airframe at the boneyard 

and a close look at some pictures taken at the crash site by a friend,  I 

would conclude that the tig welded joints on my Model IV airframe were not 

normalized after welding.  There were very few welds that broke if any. 

Every broken joint was within 2" from the weld. Exactly where the 

crystalization would be expected.  What this means in everyday flying, I 

won't hazard a guess except to say that historically, there has never been 

an airframe inflight failure.  Hard landings?  Another matter entirely.



I am attaching some photos of the airplane.  They have been reduced in 

resolution for band width reasons and the resolution is not great.



Lowell

---

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: rudder repair

Dave & Jeff,



This is an interesting topic for me because last weekend, Lowell & Kay Fitt stopped by my shop to check out my project while they were in Utah visiting family.  I got talking to them about the accident and he mentioned that all the tubing from the forward carry-thru tube broke on impact...none of the actual welds broke but about 1 to 1.5 inches ahead of the welds is where the tubing broke.  I guess the heat "normalizing" around the weld does make a difference but it looks like the rest of the airframe is not "normalized"  It appears that in the case of the Kitfox, the welds are stronger than the parent material...I think this is the case in any good weld.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: rudder repair

I see I forgot to add the photos.  find attached.



Lowell

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kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: rudder repair

Looks like the rudder is the only part that doesn't need to be repaired

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