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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Good Evening Frank,

  

 The method you are using is probably correct. I say probably because there  is a chance that your individual FAA Approved Flight Manual Supplement may say  something different. If your's is a carbon copy of the 430W or 530W Supplement,  what you say is absolutely correct. If you have had an approval via the local  approval process, there could be, but probably isn't, a catch.

  

 Incidentally, there is a small possibility that you could use your out of  date card for some approaches. The language for that interpretation is currently  under a rewrite by the FAA so there really isn't much use of discussing it now.  If you can catch me at a flyin, I would be happy to discuss it more thoroughly.  In any case, it is primarily your individual Flight Manual Supplement that  determines what you can and cannot do with your set.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8503   

  In a message dated 12/7/2007 4:07:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,  frank.hinde(at)hp.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     For me personally I    really can't justify the cost of the database upgrades and so I use my buddy's    month old chip and we rotate...I just don't do GPS approaches with    it.

    

   Frank

	




  [quote][b]

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Dj,



I have several friends at the local FSDO. They all tell me that if they do a

ramp check and any paperwork is wrong or missing, they'll violate you. IIRC,

one of them even said that the VOR check log was a favorite of his. I don't

have any problem with discussing 'how many angels can dance on the head of a

pin', but I would advise anyone who flys IFR and has a VOR on board, even if

it's a redundant part of a GPS, to keep a VOR check log in the airplane.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org

 



--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Good Evening Kevin.

  

 Without going back and reading all the garbage that I have already wasted  on this discussion, I do not believe I ever suggested that it be done any way  other than as you suggest. 

  

 I keep my datacards up to date and I make sure my VORs are ready to use. I  also properly maintain my ADF and DME even though I rarely, if ever, have any  use for them. The question asked was as to the legality of not having a VOR. The  new rule for the "W" receivers does allow flight using the "W" as the primary  sole means source. No VOR needed. 

  

 Incidentally, if you can find an airway that is based on NDB navigation,  you can fly that airway without any VOR. The ADF is qualified as a "Sole Means"  navigation source.

  

 Incidentally, there are many places you can get a suitable VOR check on the  ground, so you would not necessarily be grounded until the weather got  better.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8503   

  In a message dated 12/7/2007 4:11:40 P.M. Central Standard Time,  khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  If you    haven't  

done and logged the VOR checks, and the GPS dies, then you    are  

grounded until the weather allows VFR.  If the VOR was not    working  

properly, I would want to know about it.



Kevin    Horton



	






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  [quote][b]

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Thanks  Bob.....

  

 I have to ask..What  flight manual suppliment?.....I am experimental is this a document that is  specific to certified birds, cus I'm not sure I have seen mine.

  

 I agree there is a  question on some of the approaches, I mean even in a VOR/DME approach the GPS is  being used in lieu of the DME so in theory that makes VOR/DME's illegal with an  expried database.

  

 Mind you is it really  unsafe?..I mean all the data is right there on the plate and the GPS is simply  measuring the distance to the runway...So unless they moved the runway in the  last month it would presumably get you on the ground in one  piece..

  

 Frank



   From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  BobsV35B(at)aol.com

Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:30  PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:  IFR instrument check question

 

 Good Evening Frank,

  

 The method you are using is probably correct. I say probably because there  is a chance that your individual FAA Approved Flight Manual Supplement may say  something different. If your's is a carbon copy of the 430W or 530W Supplement,  what you say is absolutely correct. If you have had an approval via the local  approval process, there could be, but probably isn't, a catch.

  

 Incidentally, there is a small possibility that you could use your out of  date card for some approaches. The language for that interpretation is currently  under a rewrite by the FAA so there really isn't much use of discussing it now.  If you can catch me at a flyin, I would be happy to discuss it more thoroughly.  In any case, it is primarily your individual Flight Manual Supplement that  determines what you can and cannot do with your set.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8503   

  In a message dated 12/7/2007 4:07:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,  frank.hinde(at)hp.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     For me personally I    really can't justify the cost of the database upgrades and so I use my buddy's    month old chip and we rotate...I just don't do GPS approaches with    it.

    

   Frank

	






 hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

[quote]



.matronics.com/contribution

ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ics.com



[b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Good Evening Bruce,

  

 That does bring up a whole 'nother subject!

  

 Most of the FAA inspectors that I have known were good guys and strong  aviation enthusiasts. However, just like in any other group of individuals,  there will always be a few bad apples. Your friend who delights in finding an  out of date VOR check list and delights in filing a violation is a very sick  individual.

  

 If I was hit by someone that stupid, I would gladly fight him or her to the  full extent of the law so as be sure he/she learned his/her lesson. There is no  room in this industry for such individuals. 

  

 Now, that does not mean that I do not make mistakes, but if I were using a  VOR for IFR navigation, you can be sure there will be suitable record of it  having been checked as required.  I doubt very much if your friend would  actually be so stupid as to file a violation in a situation where the check was  not required so I doubt if there is any problem. As long as we are within the  rules, Stupid FED or Good FED, we do not need to be fearful of a ramp  check.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8503   

  In a message dated 12/7/2007 4:41:02 P.M. Central Standard Time,  Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Dj,



I have several friends at the local FSDO. They all tell me    that if they do a

ramp check and any paperwork is wrong or missing, they'll    violate you. IIRC,

one of them even said that the VOR check log was a    favorite of his. I don't

have any problem with discussing 'how many angels    can dance on the head of a

pin', but I would advise anyone who flys IFR and    has a VOR on board, even if

it's a redundant part of a GPS, to keep a VOR    check log in the  airplane.



Bruce

	




  [quote][b]

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

And what do we do if we have an amateur-built aircraft, and thus do  

not have a flight manual supplement?  It seems we fall back on the  

info in the AIM.



Kevin Horton

On 7-Dec-07, at 17:30 , BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Good Evening Frank,



 The method you are using is probably correct. I say probably because  

 there is a chance that your individual FAA Approved Flight Manual  

 Supplement may say something different. If your's is a carbon copy  

 of the 430W or 530W Supplement, what you say is absolutely correct.  

 If you have had an approval via the local approval process, there  

 could be, but probably isn't, a catch.



 Incidentally, there is a small possibility that you could use your  

 out of date card for some approaches. The language for that  

 interpretation is currently under a rewrite by the FAA so there  

 really isn't much use of discussing it now. If you can catch me at a  

 flyin, I would be happy to discuss it more thoroughly. In any case,  

 it is primarily your individual Flight Manual Supplement that  

 determines what you can and cannot do with your set.



 Happy Skies,



 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 Stearman N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630 985-8503



 In a message dated 12/7/2007 4:07:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, frank.hinde(at)hp.com 

  writes:

 For me personally I really can't justify the cost of the database  

 upgrades and so I use my buddy's month old chip and we rotate...I  

 just don't do GPS approaches with it.



 Frank

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Good Evening Frank,

  

 You have me  there!  I would have to research that a bit. 

  

 I am  reasonably confident that you do not need the flight manual supplement, but you  may be required to operate via the language that has been suggested by the  manufacturer for that equipment.

  

 My understanding is that experimental aircraft are required to be equipped  for IFR flight in the same manner as are certified airplanes, but that they  do not have to have as much documentation of the suitability of the equipment as  do certified airplanes. 

  

 I am confident of the legalities as I stated for certified airplanes and I  am certain that if you meet those standards, you would have no problems with  officialdom. However, exactly how much substantiation is required is something  of which I have no knowledge.

  

 Off the top of my head, I would think you would be able to do a lot more  self verification of data, but you would want to be sure enough of your position  so that you would be comfortable substantiating your position at a hearing if it  ever came to that.

  

 Interesting question.

  

 You ask: "Mind you, is it really  unsafe?"

  

 I don't think so. 

  

 Personally. I would like to see us be able  to self load waypoints so that no datacard would be required. If we do a good  job of self loading or data verification, there is absolutely no question it is  safe. 

  

 The problem is that everybody does make  mistakes. I think you will find that anyone who has used flight management  computers of the type used by Korean Airlines Flight 007 will admit to having  made mistakes similar to the one they made, but that they caught it before the  mistake became a problem. The current press of the FAA is to eliminate that sort  of a mistake by requiring us to only be allowed to navigate via data that has  been preloaded into our navigational equipment via a datacard. 

  

 I don't like it, but it may be the better  way, I really don't know!

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503

   

  In a message dated 12/7/2007 5:02:41 P.M. Central Standard Time,  frank.hinde(at)hp.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Thanks    Bob.....

    

   I have to ask..What    flight manual supplement?.....I am experimental is this a document that is    specific to certified birds, cus I'm not sure I have seen mine.

    

   I agree there is a    question on some of the approaches, I mean even in a VOR/DME approach the GPS    is being used in lieu of the DME so in theory that makes VOR/DME's illegal    with an expired database.

    

   Mind you is it really    unsafe?..I mean all the data is right there on the plate and the GPS is simply    measuring the distance to the runway...So unless they moved the runway in the    last month it would presumably get you on the ground in one    piece..

    

   Frank

	




  [quote][b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Good Evening Kevin,

  

 Very true and that section is currently under a rewrite.

 It will be interesting to see what comes out!

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8503   

  In a message dated 12/7/2007 5:17:34 P.M. Central Standard Time,  khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  And what    do we do if we have an amateur-built aircraft, and thus do  

not have    a flight manual supplement?  It seems we fall back on the  

info    in the AIM.



Kevin  Horton

	






hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

  [quote][b]

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Another tangent:



I think I could come up with a way to satisfy myself that my single VOR

was accurate, even without tuning a VOT or going to a checkpoint - as long

as my GPS was working and set to navigate to the location of the station

and I could receive a solid VOR signal..  Would it satisfy the FAA?  Can I

gauge the accuracy of a CDI driven by the VOR with one driven by a GPS? 

Maybe the FAA hasn't approved this yet but I think it would be at least as

rigorous as comparing one VOR receiver against another...

Regards,



Matt-



 	  Quote: 	
		   Good Evening Bruce,



 However, if your are on an IFR flight Plan and do not have any VOR

 equipment

 on board or if the VOR equipment you have is suitably configured and

 placarded as in operative, you are still perfectly legal.



 I think you are fighting a battle that does not exist.



 If you really want to get into picking belly button lint, I don't think

 even

 an operative VOR has to have VOR check listed as long as you have not used

 it for IFR flight and can show that you do not intend it to be used it for

 IFR

 flight.



 I think doing so is about as dumb as getting into this argument, but if I

 somehow found myself at a hearing on the subject, I'll bet a milk shake I

 would

 win!



 Happy  Skies,



 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 Stearman  N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630 985-8503

 In a message dated 12/7/2007 4:03:22 P.M. Central Standard Time,

 Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:



 If itâ€™s in the  airplane and youâ€™re on an IFR FP and are ramp checked,

 the

 FAA is going to ask  for the VOR check log along with the other paperwork.



 Bruce

 _www.Glasair.org_ (http://www.glasair.org/)

 **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's

 hottest

 products.

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Good Evening Matt,

  

 I don't have my IFRs with me just now and my memory of the fine points of  checking VORs is limited, but aren't we allowed to use a position over a known  point to verify the accuracy? 

  

 Since we have GPS signal that gives us a known position within about ten  feet, I would think that would serve as the known point for a VOR check.

  

 What are your thoughts?

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8503   

  In a message dated 12/7/2007 6:13:24 P.M. Central Standard Time,  mprather(at)spro.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Another    tangent:



I think I could come up with a way to satisfy myself that my    single VOR

was accurate, even without tuning a VOT or going to a checkpoint    - as long

as my GPS was working and set to navigate to the location of the    station

and I could receive a solid VOR signal..  Would it satisfy the    FAA?  Can I

gauge the accuracy of a CDI driven by the VOR with one    driven by a GPS? 

Maybe the FAA hasn't approved this yet but I think it    would be at least as

rigorous as comparing one VOR receiver against    another...



	






hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

  [quote][b]

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

I gotta side with Bruce on this one.  



Two years ago I was ramp checked after landing at CHA just after dark.  I

was in a rented C172 building CC time with an inoperative and placarded NAV

radio.  The inspector warned me that even with an INOP NAV I was required to

have the VOR Check Log... He suggested removing the radio to avoid the

violation.



Lesson:  If you got it, you gotta log it.  

Bret Smith

RV-9A N16BL

Blue Ridge, Ga

www.FlightInnovations.com

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Your presumption is incorrect. VORs are only needed if you intend to use 

them. You can fly most anywhere in Alaska with a good ADF, places and 

airways that can't be flown with only VOR.  Yes, they still have colored 

airways, although may be phasing out for GPS. VOR couldn't handle the 

distances and terrain in Alaska. Even some jet routes required ADF for 

some segments.

Buckaroo Banzai wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Interesting question.  SFAR 97 allows the exclusive use of GPS for IFR 

 navigation in Alaska so if the person asking the question flies only 

 in Alaska the answer would be obvious.



 You don't state if his airplane is certified or experimental.  Most 

 experimental aircraft come with operating limitations that 

 specifically call out FAR 91.205 for IFR operations and FAR 91.205 

 requires navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities to be 

 used.  Many people read that as a requirement for VOR capability in 

 the aircraft (including EAA, I believe). 



 FAR 91.171 requires the VOR check every 30 days for "...aircraft under 

 IFR using the VOR system of radio navigation....".  No indication what 

 you have to do if you don't use the VOR system of radio navigation.



 This is a case where the regulations need to catch up with the state 

 of the art.  It would appear VOR equipment is required but you don't 

 have to check it unless you're going to use it.



 One question.  What are you going to do if you get a RAIM message from 

 your GPS system that you can't shoot the approach and then have to use 

 VOR to complete the flight?  In my opinion it would be worthwhile to 

 keep the VOR checks up to date until the regulations catch up.



 Greg



el

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Hmm,.

Which FAR would that be Bruce? I don't see that language in 91.171 that 

covers VOR checks, and it specifically says " shall enter the date, 

place, bearing error, and sign the aircraft log or other record"

Now we all know that the aircraft log(s) specifically do NOT have to be 

kept in the plane, nor do other aircraft records besides the 

airworthiness, registration, (used to be radio license), operators 

manual (POH or equiv) and weight and balance. The old ARROW acronym.

Perhaps there is some other FAR that I can't think of right now?

Kelly



Bruce Gray wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 One other thing, the FAR’s specifically require the log to be ‘in the 

 airplane’.



 Bruce



 www.Glasair.org <http://www.Glasair.org>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Data card have nothing to do with the FAA other then they be up to date if used.  Data cards are more about efficiency and making profits.  Their are many navigation computer still used today that do not use data card and are still legal (and yes I know you can’t use these for RNP and RNAV APP and DEP).  If you could effectively operate a navigation unit without the navdata cards people would be doing it.  The problem is there is just too much information that you have to be able to program even for short flights in the IFR world.  

   

Mike  

   

--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question

I would disagree with this position!  If the item is placarded inop,

which means it is in effect not installed.  Not to be confused with not

working.  If an airplane does not have a legal MEL then all the required

equipment must be working.  The exception would be equipment listed as

inoperative that is not parted of the TC listed as required equipment.

A log in this case would not be required or one could argue that the

inoperative sticker is effectively the VOR log stating that it does not

comply and does not meet the requirement for legal IFR flight.  Remember

a VOR log is not defined, only what must be recorded if it has been

done.



Mike



--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question

Good Afternoon Mike,

  

 I am having a bit of a problem following your thought.

  

 Are you stating that something I suggested is in error, or do you just wish  to point out that the data is not always easy to find?

  

 The FAA has written many interpretations that the certificated folks need  to consider when flying IFR via GPS.

  

 Some are pretty straight forward. 

  

 Others can be a bit obscure and open to further interpretation.

  

 The current language of most approvals states quite clearly that the DATA  must always be current and that any waypoints used for an approach must be  retrieved from a fixed data base within the navigational unit and not from pilot  loaded data.

  

 The DATA card has become the accepted method of updating the data for most  currently produced General Aviation units.  There are some manufacturers  who have gotten approval to use the data from an out of date card if that data  can be verified by comparison with another current source.  If the data is  current, it is usable. If it is not current, it is not usable.

  

 Other certificated approvals have no allowance for pilot verification and  the only approved source of data is a current datacard. The language controlling  such things is currently being rewritten by the FAA. It may change soon. 

  

 Which way it will go and whether or not it will affect the Experimental  crowd, we have no inkling at all.

  

 If you can add any information to the mix, I would love to hear it. 

  

 If you know of a case where I am spreading false information, I am even  more anxious to be apprised of that!

  

 My belief is that such activity is what we have been discussing and it is  what I have attempted to explain. If anyone feels my thoughts are in error, I  certainly hope they will explain why so that we can all gain a better  understanding of how to operate safely and legally within the system.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503

   

  In a message dated 12/8/2007 12:41:04 P.M. Central Standard Time,  mlas(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Data card have    nothing to do with the FAA other then they be up to date if used.  Data cards are more about efficiency    and making profits.  Their are many navigation computer still used today that do    not use data card and are still legal (and yes I know you canâ€™t use these for    RNP and RNAV APP and DEP).  If you    could effectively operate a navigation unit without the navdata cards people    would be doing it.  The problem is    there is just too much information that you have to be able to program even    for short flights in the IFR world.   

    

Mike 	






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