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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
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 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: 8130.2F Operating Limitations |
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Does it bother anybody else that 8130.2F (even Change 3) says under 161(b)2 that:
(2) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements
of § 91.319(b), as stated in the program letter (required by § 21.193) for this aircraft. This aircraft must
be operated in accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of part 91, as well as all
additional limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of § 91.319(e). These operating limitations
are a part of the special airworthiness certificate, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times
and made available to the pilot in command of the aircraft. (Applicability: All)
And if you read 91.319(b) it basically says that you can only fly the aircraft to demonstrate that it's safe.
(2) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of § 91.319(b)...
Which is to say that after you've demonstrated that the aircraft is safe, you can't fly it again.
What #2 SHOULD say is that "During the flight test phase..." which is a perfectly reasonable statement.
And then you have 161(b)30 which says:
(30) No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose(s) of [identify purpose(s)],
to exhibit the aircraft, or participate in events outlined in [identify applicant]’s program letter (or any
amendments) describing compliance with § 21.193(d). In addition, this aircraft must be operated in
accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of part 91, and all additional
limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of § 91.319(e). These operating limitations are a part
of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command
of the aircraft. (Applicability: All)
Which puts it in conflict with 161(b)2 because neither is qualified with before/after flight test phase has been completed.
Moreover, unless "proficiency/practice" is listed in #30, you can't fly your aircraft for proficiency/practice even if #2 is cleaned up. Where else does it SAY that you can fly for proficiency? It's implied, but not stated.
And what's the difference between "proficiency flight" and "practice flight"? Because #10 says you can carry passengers during proficiency flights but it doesn't mention practice flights.
I know that these are nits, but they're nits in the RULES and that's a big old mess.
Jon
[quote][b]
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: 8130.2F Operating Limitations |
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Jon,
You make some good points. However, I would like to point out, with regards to 91.319(b) and the 8130.2F section 161 (b)(2), the aircraft's OL's begin first with Section 158, Groups of Aircraft and then 161(b)(2) and tell the reader that they can not operate the aircraft unless it is to meet the requirements 91.319(b). Therefore 91.319(b) governs the flight rules of the airplane. So lets look at the governing rule 91.319(b):
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations
The operative word in 91.319(b) is "until". Once the aircraft has met the requirements of 91.319(b), THEN it can be flown IAW the rest of the aircraft's Operating Limitations.
Proficiency flights and Proficiency Area are stated in Section 158 (c)(3) and are incorporated into Experimental, Exhibition aircraft OL's. Section 158 does refer to Section 161. But OL's must start with Section 158.
158. GROUPS OF AIRCRAFT. Aircraft eligible for experimental airworthiness certification for
exhibition or air racing range from unpowered gliders to high-performance jet aircraft. In order to
properly certificate this wide range of aircraft, and in response to the many public comments received,
the FAA has divided these aircraft into four groups. This was done in order to establish standardized
operating limitations, proficiency areas, and inspection requirements appropriate to each aircraft.
Minimum operating limitations for each group are provided in paragraph 161 of this order. The FAA
will make a determination of which group the aircraft will operate in based on the following:
c. Group III, Piston-Powered: Warbirds, Vintage, Replica, and Unique Aircraft.
(3) Proficiency Area. All proficiency flights for an aircraft under 800 horsepower will be
conducted in airspace within an operational radius of 300 nautical miles from its designated home base
airport. Aircraft 800 horsepower and above will be limited to an operational radius of 600 nautical miles
from their designated home base airport.
By the insertion of the above paragraph in the aircraft's OL's, proficiency flights are authorized.
A somewhat related definition of proficiency considering the absence of the word practice is:
Proficiency - skillfulness in the command of fundamentals deriving from practice and familiarity; "practice greatly improves proficiency"
One of the things I was educated about from a person at FAA headquarters in DC was; "If the FAA wants to restrict you, the regulation will clearly spell out the restriction. A person should not interpret a restriction into a regulation." This occurs way too often, particularly with FSDO personnel. An example of interpreting a restriction was an inspector believed because the FAA Order 8130.2F did not specifically say the aircraft could take off and land at any airport (except Class B airports) within the prescribed 300 NM proficiency area, the airplane was restricted to taking off and landing at the aircraft's home base airport OR to events listed on the annual program letter or amendments thereto. PERIOD!! After "discussing" this with the inspector and doing my homework and calling EAA headquarters and AIR200 in DC, which is where the previous quote came from, the inspector was gracious enough to accept that he was wrong.
With the elimination of the 300/600 mile proficiency area restriction from OL's, this problem should not occur again.
Merry Christmas,
Dennis
[quote] ---
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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: 8130.2F Operating Limitations |
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Well, that's kind-of the funny thing... 158 says more, but it doesn't get written into your limitations. It just gives guidance for writing the limitations, but is not the limitations themselves. When you get your actual A/W certificate, it doesn't have the guidance from 158 in it, just the limitations from 161. And as has been said here plenty of times before, your limitations are YOUR limitations -- you have to go see what was written for your airplane because nebulous documents in other places don't apply, all that applies is what is written for your plane. Which is why poorly written and conflicting limitations is such a problem.
91.319(b) is just fine... it makes perfect sense.
What DOESN'T make sense is a limitation (161(b)2) that says that the ONLY reason you can fly your aircraft it to show compliance with 91.319(b). It doesn't say that you can go to airshows with it, it doesn't say that you can fly for proficiency, it doesn't say that something somewhere else says you can do more, it doesn't say that you can do ANYTHING other than "show compliance" with 91.319(b).
I agree with the general "if it doesn't say you can't, you can" approach... but the language of "ONLY" in #2 and "NO ... OTHER THAN" in #30 says: You can't.
I know what they meant, it's what they said that I have a problem with. 
On the other hand, if all the experimental exhibition aircraft have basically been flying in violation of their restrictions for the last ten years, this may have voided them... kind-of like trying to get a judge to enforce deed restrictions that all the neighbors have been ignoring for years.
Jon
[quote] From: dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: 8130.2F Operating Limitations
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:37:28 -0600
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Jon,
You make some good points. However, I would like to point out, with regards to 91.319(b) and the 8130.2F section 161 (b)(2), the aircraft's OL's begin first with Section 158, Groups of Aircraft and then 161(b)(2) and tell the reader that they can not operate the aircraft unless it is to meet the requirements 91.319(b). Therefore 91.319(b) governs the flight rules of the airplane. So lets look at the governing rule 91.319(b):
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations
The operative word in 91.319(b) is "until". Once the aircraft has met the requirements of 91.319(b), THEN it can be flown IAW the rest of the aircraft's Operating Limitations.
Proficiency flights and Proficiency Area are stated in Section 158 (c)(3) and are incorporated into Experimental, Exhibition aircraft OL's. Section 158 does refer to Section 161. But OL's must start with Section 158.
158. GROUPS OF AIRCRAFT. Aircraft eligible for experimental airworthiness certification for
exhibition or air racing range from unpowered gliders to high-performance jet aircraft. In order to
properly certificate this wide range of aircraft, and in response to the many public comments received,
the FAA has divided these aircraft into four groups. This was done in order to establish standardized
operating limitations, proficiency areas, and inspection requirements appropriate to each aircraft.
Minimum operating limitations for each group are provided in paragraph 161 of this order. The FAA will make a determination of which group the aircraft will operate in based on the following:
c. Group III, Piston-Powered: Warbirds, Vintage, Replica, and Unique Aircraft.
(3) Proficiency Area. All proficiency flights for an aircraft under 800 horsepower will be
conducted in airspace within an operational radius of 300 nautical miles from its designated home base
airport. Aircraft 800 horsepower and above will be limited to an operational radius of 600 nautical miles from their designated home base airport.
By the insertion of the above paragraph in the aircraft's OL's, proficiency flights are authorized.
A somewhat related definition of proficiency considering the absence of the word practice is:
Proficiency - skillfulness in the command of fundamentals deriving from practice and familiarity; "practice greatly improves proficiency"
One of the things I was educated about from a person at FAA headquarters in DC was; "If the FAA wants to restrict you, the regulation will clearly spell out the restriction. A person should not interpret a restriction into a regulation." This occurs way too often, particularly with FSDO personnel. An example of interpreting a restriction was an inspector believed because the FAA Order 8130.2F did not specifically say the aircraft could take off and land at any airport (except Class B airports) within the prescribed 300 NM proficiency area, the airplane was restricted to taking off and landing at the aircraft's home base airport OR to events listed on the annual program letter or amendments thereto. PERIOD!! After "discussing" this with the inspector and doing my homework and calling EAA headquarters and AIR200 in DC, which is where the previous quote came from, the inspector was gracious enough to accept that he was wrong.
With the elimination of the 300/600 mile proficiency area restriction from OL's, this problem should not occur again.
Merry Christmas,
Dennis
[quote] ---
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