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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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 Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Test email |
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Rick,
Respectfully, I believe you are confusing silicone with silicon. While many abrasives do contain SILICON (one of the main ingredients of glass, and the second most abundant element on earth).
SILICONE, on the other hand, is an altogether different compound, with the following definition;
Silicones are a large group of compounds that include large polymers containing silicon. Depending on the formula and the degree of polymerization and cross-linking of the polymers, they may be slippery liquids, waxes, or rubbers.
None of the "cleansers" contain silicone. Some DO contain silicon.
Mike Welch
Do Not Archive
Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a surface, they can never be removed, only spread around.
Rick
_________________________________________________________________
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captainron1(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: Test email |
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Silicone Ok I get it. I thought he meant silicate as in sand.
Ron (TXAZ)
=================================
---- robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:
=============
In the 80s, before the widespread use of factory clearcoat there was
a lot of that silicone
stuff sold to make your old car look shiny. Car painters hated it.
Very tough to get off and
unless you did completely the new paint would peel right off in a
couple of weeks.
Sanding it would just push it deeper. After one bad experience I now
scrub any car
I want to paint with an extremely harsh HVAC coil cleaner rated
detergent before any
work starts. Use gloves.
BB
On 17, Feb 2008, at 11:14 AM, Ron wrote:
| Quote: |
That sounds odd to me Richard, why can't you get it off with say a
sponge with a good rinse of running water?
Ron (AZ,TX)
============================
---- Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
=============
Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a
surface, they
can never be removed, only spread around.
Rick
On Feb 17, 2008 8:24 AM, russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> In my experience , scratching the surface
> On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>
>>
>> <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com>
>>
>> What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
>> gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
>> perhaps ?
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
kugelair.com
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kugelair.com
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Test email |
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Everyone likes bonafides when a statement is a controversial statement is made. Here are mine. I was a bond and seal certified inspector at Boeing for many years. I sat through the required "Death by View Foil" classes every six months in order to maintain that cert. Boeing is absolutely anal about any forms of silicone contamination on the aircraft. It is used for sealing the windows into their frames as it can with stand the temperature extremes the airframes endure in their normal working environment. Absolutely strict quarantine is made of all materials, tools, and disposables used to work with silicone containing substances to prevent contamination of those surfaces that are painted or bonded. The reason is simple to understand, although I am not a chemist so I can only repeat what the engineers taught me. The problem is that silicone forms a molecular bond with anything with which it comes into contact. Once it contaminates a surface, you can sand it, blast it, chemically etch it, or burn it and the silicone simply works its way down to the next layer. I've discussed the use of car waxes containing silicones with car painters over the years based upon what I was taught at Boeing. To a man they hated them. Yes there are products that will encapsulate them so that repair work can be done, but you will never get the same bond you would if the surface was not contaminated. One engineer used this analogy: Imagine having a bunch of microscopic highly magnetic ball bearings spread out over a steel sheet. Now imagine how it would be to paint the sheet. Then imagine how well that coating of paint would hold up to a 400 mph wind blast at -50 degrees F.
This silicone issue was particularly critical to the builders of composite aircraft like the LongEZ. Early on many builders found that peel ply was virtually the same as polyester dress sheathing (which is nearly the same as ultralight weight Polyfiber cloth for that matter) with one very important difference. The dress sheathing often has sizings applied to it which contains silicone. Builders would use the dress sheathing in place of peel ply and then find that bonding of subsequent layups was sub strength.Really bad if say you're laying up the bonds that hold the winglets on a LongEz wing for instance.
Anyone wishing to test the point can buy a can of dry silicone spray, make up two test panels one with silicone and one without. Spray a coat of good quality paint on both and do a peel test on each.
This information is worth exactly what you paid for it, do with it as you wish.
Rick
do not archive
trying to get better at remembering to include that.
On Feb 17, 2008 10:14 AM, Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
That sounds odd to me Richard, why can't you get it off with say a sponge with a good rinse of running water?
Ron (AZ,TX)
===
---- Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
=============
Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a surface, they
can never be removed, only spread around.
Rick
On Feb 17, 2008 8:24 AM, russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net (kinnepix(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net (kinnepix(at)earthlink.net)>
In my experience , scratching the surface
On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>
|
| Quote: | > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com (d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com)>
>
> What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
> > gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
|
| Quote: | > perhaps ?
>
> David.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
> >
|
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http://www.mat========================
= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: Test email |
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I think they may be right to be concerned about the wrong material getting onto the wrong place. However Comet and the rest of them use silicates as in sand / abrasive and not the silicone that I use to lubricate hinges. One is an abrasive and the other is an artificial compound created by man. If I recall the story right silicone the lubricant is based on a secretion that some insects use to get away from predators, in other words its Slick. Why was it not named Slickon is a question to ponder about, Comet does not want slick they want none slick so they can scrub the surface. But I can see the confusion on the subject. I have used Comet and Ajax to clean alum pots and besides it working well it washed pretty well too.
Ron (TxAz)
=============================
---- Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Everyone likes bonafides when a statement is a controversial statement is
made. Here are mine. I was a bond and seal certified inspector at Boeing for
many years. I sat through the required "Death by View Foil" classes every
six months in order to maintain that cert. Boeing is absolutely anal about
any forms of silicone contamination on the aircraft. It is used for sealing
the windows into their frames as it can with stand the temperature extremes
the airframes endure in their normal working environment. Absolutely strict
quarantine is made of all materials, tools, and disposables used to work
with silicone containing substances to prevent contamination of those
surfaces that are painted or bonded. The reason is simple to understand,
although I am not a chemist so I can only repeat what the engineers taught
me. The problem is that silicone forms a molecular bond with anything with
which it comes into contact. Once it contaminates a surface, you can sand
it, blast it, chemically etch it, or burn it and the silicone simply works
its way down to the next layer. I've discussed the use of car waxes
containing silicones with car painters over the years based upon what I was
taught at Boeing. To a man they hated them. Yes there are products that will
encapsulate them so that repair work can be done, but you will never get the
same bond you would if the surface was not contaminated. One engineer used
this analogy: Imagine having a bunch of microscopic highly magnetic ball
bearings spread out over a steel sheet. Now imagine how it would be to paint
the sheet. Then imagine how well that coating of paint would hold up to a
400 mph wind blast at -50 degrees F.
This silicone issue was particularly critical to the builders of composite
aircraft like the LongEZ. Early on many builders found that peel ply was
virtually the same as polyester dress sheathing (which is nearly the same as
ultralight weight Polyfiber cloth for that matter) with one very important
difference. The dress sheathing often has sizings applied to it which
contains silicone. Builders would use the dress sheathing in place of peel
ply and then find that bonding of subsequent layups was sub
strength.Reallybad if say you're laying up the bonds that hold the
winglets on a LongEz
wing for instance.
Anyone wishing to test the point can buy a can of dry silicone spray, make
up two test panels one with silicone and one without. Spray a coat of good
quality paint on both and do a peel test on each.
This information is worth exactly what you paid for it, do with it as you
wish.
Rick
do not archive
trying to get better at remembering to include that.
On Feb 17, 2008 10:14 AM, Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
That sounds odd to me Richard, why can't you get it off with say a sponge
with a good rinse of running water?
Ron (AZ,TX)
============================
---- Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
=============
Paint problems are caused by silicone. Once you get them on a surface,
they
can never be removed, only spread around.
Rick
On Feb 17, 2008 8:24 AM, russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> In my experience , scratching the surface
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lucas wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > What's the problem with having Silicates present in your cleaning
> > gear , Your Ajax's and Bon Ami's etc. ? Paint surface preparation
> > perhaps ?
> >
> > David.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164535#164535
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
kugelair.com
|
--
kugelair.com
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