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comparing a zenith to an airbus

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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

the A 300 lost its rudder because it was made of carbon fiber support that failed from a prior damage.  what people do not know is that Aircraft had rudder damage and was then repaired and put on the flight line.  That led to the crash.  nothing else.  the root spar gave way with rudder deflection due to prior damage fatiguing it.



Lets quit comparing a small Zenith aircraft to a 10 ton Jet.  Lets get back to building the planes please, you guys are mentally mastubating all over the place.. The plane in Polk CIty was a production plane so the NTSB will do a full investigation and we will eventually see where the results lie.  Everything else is armchair sleuthing which leads to bad and misleading speculation.  LETS MOVE ON PLEASE.

Don't bother to rebuttle unless you have built one and are flying one. i am getting tired of the cackle of hens bitching and speculating, and most are a decade away from flying, or not even building!  This is NOT the NTSB investigation Matronics Web Site!  MOVE ON!



Juan 



--

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 09:27:35AM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Don't bother to rebuttle unless you have built one and are flying one. i

 am getting tired of the cackle of hens bitching and speculating, and most

 are a decade away from flying, or not even building!  This is NOT the NTSB

 investigation Matronics Web Site!  MOVE ON!


	


Sorry, Juan, but I have to disagree on this one. The prospect of an inflight

breakup is enough to give any pilot pause. The people on this list (at least

the Zodiac contingent) have a real interest in whether or not it will happen

to them, and unique insight into how the aircraft goes together and what

goes into it.



I'm not building. I'm buying. I want to know if it's going to kill me, and

how to prevent it if there's any way I can. That's not going to stop me from

getting in and flying it, but it may well affect how I fly it.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

cndmovn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Well said!  I have kept my mouth shut on this for the past week and just hit the delete key every time it came up.



Back to building everyone.



I am about to hang the front sides on my fuselage.  A bit of a b(at)tch getting the firewall and everything lined up, but I think I have it.

 

Cheers



Paul



www.mykitlog.com/paulried

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>

  

 the A 300 lost its rudder because it was made of carbon fiber support that failed from a prior damage.  what people do not know is that Aircraft had rudder damage and was then repaired and put on the flight line.  That led to the crash.  nothing else.  the root spar gave way with rudder deflection due to prior damage fatiguing it.

  

 Lets quit comparing a small Zenith aircraft to a 10 ton Jet.  Lets get back to building the planes please, you guys are mentally mastubating all over the place.. The plane in Polk CIty was a production plane so the NTSB will do a full investigation and we will eventually see where the results lie.  Everything else is armchair sleuthing which leads to bad and misleading speculation.  LETS MOVE ON PLEASE.

  Don't bother to rebuttle unless you have built one and are flying one. i am getting tired of the cackle of hens bitching and speculating, and most are a decade away from flying, or not even building!  This is NOT the NTSB investigation Matronics Web Site!  MOVE ON!

  

 Juan

 

 --

Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Re: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Juan your facts on the airbus crash are a bit misleading....  I was required to do a 6 mo. investigation on this particular accident in my air traffic training because of the roll wake turbulence had.  All of what you said does have truth to it however the biggest contributing factor leading to the failure of that part was the over deflection of the rudder during the wake turbulence encounter.  The speed at which full rudder deflection can be applied was not exceeded in this event however that speed is designed for application of full deflection in 1 direction OR the other from the neutral position NOT from 1 direction TO the other as was the case with the airbus.  Believe it or not this is actually how the AAL pilots where trained to handle this encounter in the A300.  AAL had removed certain elements from the simulator program provided by airbus that would have caught this mistake early on.  So while I agree we should not compare Airbus' to Oranges we would be ignorant not too learn from accidents facts that could one day save our lives.  And in this instance it is important to understand that overdeflection of a control surface at ANY speed can have devastating consequences which is in fact related to some of the concerns we all are trying to address right now.

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Very well put Andrew,  I hope that  you have bult a 601 or at least stayed 

at  a" Holiday Inn   " If not all of your education,and knowlege of Air 

craft  doesn't count for ZIP, If you don't belive me ask Juan.... 

N101HD 601XL/RAM  (I built a 601, but don't know anything about a Airbus,can 

you imagine that?                                                -----  

Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrewlieser" <Andrewlieser(at)gmail.com>

To: <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 12:04 PM

Subject: Re: comparing a zenith to an airbus

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Juan your facts on the airbus crash are a bit misleading....  I was 

 required to do a 6 mo. investigation on this particular accident in my air 

 traffic training because of the roll wake turbulence had.  All of what you 

 said does have truth to it however the biggest contributing factor leading 

 to the failure of that part was the over deflection of the rudder during 

 the wake turbulence encounter.  The speed at which full rudder deflection 

 can be applied was not exceeded in this event however that speed is 

 designed for application of full deflection in 1 direction OR the other 

 from the neutral position NOT from 1 direction TO the other as was the 

 case with the airbus.  Believe it or not this is actually how the AAL 

 pilots where trained to handle this encounter in the A300.  AAL had 

 removed certain elements from the simulator program provided by airbus 

 that would have caught this mistake early on.  So while I agree we should 

 not compare Airbus' to Oranges we would be ignorant not!

  too learn from accidents facts that could one day save our lives.  And in 

 this instance it is important to understand that overdeflection of a 

 control surface at ANY speed can have devastating consequences which is in 

 fact related to some of the concerns we all are trying to address right 

 now.



 --------

 Andrew Lieser





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179339#179339

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Andrew,



And you forgot to mention that the A 300 landed on its rudder  and the carbon fiber structure was never repaired properly.  So what part is missleading? so we are comparing a screwed up part on a 10 ton aircraft to a 700 lb. zenith.  I am glad you studied the case as an Airtraffic control school requirement.  Lets keep up the great Great comparisons.  Apples and oranges.  



Lets not kid our selves, we are building a "Kit" not designing an airbus.  The Kit which by luck was an S-SLA prodction plane crashed and every weekend engineer wannabe is out being Inspector Cleuseau.  It got old three days ago.   Frankly I feel pretty Bad for the families, I frankly have thought how bad it must be, and We all put ourselves in that plane. But lets move on.



Juan



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Jay,

Fair enough, lets agree to disagree, accident gave me pause and concerns as well, but lets leave the investigation to the REAL Professionals and.............. LETS MOVE ON!

Juan



--

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

I think that you may be correct Juan,"  we should move on",but'that is not 

to say when other people on the list want to talk about it, they should ! 

,and the other people that are not intrested, you're right,just hit the" 

DELEAT "key".One thing that we all should agree on. We are dealing with ," a 

unknown factor", a unknown  factor is not a good thing to try solve because 

there may be more than  just one..that increases chances of something going 

wrong around two fold." That to me is a long shot ",I dont play" long shots 

", so my crate is staying on the ground !, untill some one finds out what is 

going on. That's" just me ",any one else can fly you' re asses off ,that is 

up to you..     Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM

---

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Southern,

My recommendation is then that you call Matronics and start the "Sh-t on Zenith and armchair quarterbacking List". That way the guys that want to open their crates and start building have a place to go for advise on "Building and Flying"



Juan



--

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Juan; you don't get it,do you ? It's not about you, or zenith it's about 

what I'am going to do with my airplane,and as far as" shit on zenith part" 

you got that 1/2 right. as usual, I don't give a shit  what  you or zenith 

do. Do you owe them because they sold  you a kit., I know I don't..Keep on 

flying  well in formed.601 builder   Joe N101HD601XL/RAM



 what you or zenith

---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 06:23:28PM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My recommendation is then that you call Matronics and start the "Sh-t on

 Zenith and armchair quarterbacking List".


	


OBJECTION!!!!!!



It is in no way my intention, nor, I believe, that of anyone here, to ****

on Zenith. They're good people making fine aircraft, and I'm certain they

are as heartsick as the rest of us over the loss of life. I do not believe

they're covering up a thing. I don't believe they *want* to cover up a

thing.



Those of us looking for answers to the 601XL mystery are not blaming anyone.

We just want answers, and, I believe, are entitled to them. We understand

that the NTSB takes a while to produce those answers. That those of us who

are experienced int he design and construction of the Zodiac are looking for

those answers ourselves is not a reflection on Zenith or anyone else. It's

merely a desire to know, sooner rather than later, just what the aircraft

might have in store for us.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: comparing a zenith to an airbus

For what it's worth --



On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ... lets leave the investigation to the REAL Professionals ...


	


The discussions I've seen on this list in the days since the "Post

crash" photo collection was published are as erudite and well-informed

as anything I've read in an NTSB accident report of a commercial heavy

(TWA 800, Egyptair 990, ...). It seems that, once the participants had

some concrete objective evidence, the (perfectly understandable!!)

paralyzing anxiety has been replaced by a real spirit of open debate

and inquiry. And many list members who stepped up to the plate clearly

have a lot of knowledge and experience to bring to bear.



Sincere condolences to those who knew the folks that were lost, and I

wish all the best of luck to those working to make sense of the

situation.



Ihab



DO NOT ARCHIVE



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Jay I agree whole heartedly with everything you said, I don't believe that Zenith is trying to cover anything up either.  And Juan I was not trying discredit anything you've said I was instead just trying to put all the information out there for people to discern.  This is not a **** on Zenith debate at all, just concerned builders trying to understand what has happened. Didn't mean to offend anyone.... and yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!  

Andrew

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

PLAV8R

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: comparing a zenith to an airbus

Juan,



  Yes, lets get on with it.  I am very sorry if someone took my postings as being negative to Zenith or any of the fine members of this forum.  I again say, don't stop building, purchasing, or flying the Zodiac 601 XL.  It is a dream aircraft as you all know.  I have the up-most respect for Chis Heinz and Zodiac.  It is obvious to me that these are men of integrity and are very committed to their design, product, customers,  and reputation.  I would also feel that with the information provided, builders may pay more attention to any changes or recommendations based on the information that is available to them. Pilots should practice due diligence prior to flight.  Take a little extra time checking for any "smoking" rivets in the undercarriage, inspecting the wing attachment fittings ( if possible), aileron hinges etc.  It would take less time then this posting.

  I am also sure that they (Zenith), along with the NTSB, are doing a thorough investigation of these incidents.  They may have seen many of these posts.  I do have faith in the NTSB and anyone associated with this aircraft.  I have been waiting one and a half years to hear some kind of conclusion to this accident.  The NTSB could very well be taxed of limited resources for investigations.

  The NTSB could look at this forum and say "been there, seen that".  However,  with what I have seen,  there are many very conscientious members with an intimate knowledge of the design and components and have come up with some very sound theories based on a very limited amount of information (videos and a few pictures).  There are more eyes on this now.  Someone may see something that others have not seen (thinking outside the box).

  I would consider the "armchair quarterbacks" as someone that has not participated in the game.  The game is still in play.  There is no definite outcome yet.  But these fine people may very well have participated and/or have aided in the resolution to problem that plagued us all.

  Please don't stop building your dreams.  This will all get figured out and we can all feel at ease.



I am still waiting to hear if I can get access to the "Yuba City" aircraft and procure better pictures, etc.

Regards, Don

_________________
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
don.dennehey@gmail.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123

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