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William Sullivans Accident

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of the news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME what happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the engine to slow the plane down. I was concerned about stopping distances, and considering brakes and stronger legs. (see previous posts to the list about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT ready to fly, and neither was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane near the end of the runway. If it had stayed down, I could have stopped it with no problem. Following the advice of club members, I went to WOT to go around. The plane had been turned to the right, so I couldn't just put it down! I got it straight and gradually climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled around to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the climb rate gradual. The second pass was very good, again at 4000rpm. I flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and  started to cut power. I put the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. That is all I remember, but my intent was to fly it all the way down. My wife says it looked like a down draft pushed the plane into the ground, buckling one L.G. leg, cartwheeling twice and flipping over. Last thing I remember was just about 2 feet off the ground, looking good. I got the rest from my wife.

  People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as there WERE gusts from time to time.

   

  Written by William T. Sullivan,

  Typed by Norma J. Sullivan

   

   

  Do not archive

 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

Bill,



 First, I'm glad you're OK (more or less).  Bad as it was, it could have been a lot worse!



 Unless you're in rotor behind obstacles, you won't find downdrafts at 15'.  What you _will_ find is gusts or "un gusts", which can quickly reduce your airspeed from something above stall to below stall... and you drop.  This may have been what happened.  I the aircraft you previously flew, the higher stall speed means such an effect is a smaller percentage of the stall speed, so it's less likely to be a problem.  However, if you're approaching at 35 mph in an airplane that stalls at 30, and you get a 10 mph un-gust... well, you get the picture.  Add to this the inoperative ASI, the tendency of the plane to pitch up when you reduce power and the low inertia of such a light plane, and it's even worse.  That's why in an ultralight you don't just "fly the plane to the ground", but (to the perspective of a pilot with GA experience) you literally DIVE the plane at the runway.



 Anyway, I hope you recover soon, and get to work rebuilding or shopping for another or whatever makes sense, so we can fly together.



 -Dana



 At 02:40 PM 6/18/2008, william sullivan wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of the news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME what happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the engine to slow the plane down. I was concerned about stopping distances, and considering brakes and stronger legs. (see previous posts to the list about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT ready to fly, and neither was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane near the end of the runway. If it had stayed down, I could have stopped it with no problem. Following the advice of club members, I went to WOT to go around. The plane had been turned to the right, so I couldn't just put it down! I got it straight and gradually climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled around to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the climb rate gradual. The second pass was very good, again at 4000rpm. I flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and started to cut power. I put the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. That is all I remember, but my intent was to fly it all the way down. My wife says it looked like a down draft pushed the plane into the ground, buckling one L.G. leg, cartwheeling twice and flipping over. Last thing I remember was just about 2 feet off the ground, looking good. I got the rest from my wife.

 People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as there WERE gusts from time to time.

  

 Written by William T. Sullivan,

 Typed by Norma J. Sullivan

  

  

 Do not archive



  	  Quote: 	
		  



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[/b] 	
	


 --

  When Columbus came to America, there were no taxes, no debts, and no pollution.  The women did all the work while the men hunted or fished all day.  Ever since then, a bunch of idiotic do-gooders have been trying to "improve" the place.    [quote][b]

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!!



 

 

 



 [quote]  Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:27:45 -0400

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

From: d-m-hague(at)comcast.net

Subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident



Bill,



First, I'm glad you're OK (more or less).  Bad as it was, it could have been a lot worse!



Unless you're in rotor behind obstacles, you won't find downdrafts at 15'.  What you _will_ find is gusts or "un gusts", which can quickly reduce your airspeed from something above stall to below stall... and you drop.  This may have been what happened.  I the aircraft you previously flew, the higher stall speed means such an effect is a smaller percentage of the stall speed, so it's less likely to be a problem.  However, if you're approaching at 35 mph in an airplane that stalls at 30, and you get a 10 mph un-gust... well, you get the picture.  Add to this the inoperative ASI, the tendency of the plane to pitch up when you reduce power and the low inertia of such a light plane, and it's even worse.  That's why in an ultralight you don't just "fly the plane to the ground", but (to the perspective of a pilot with GA experience) you literally DIVE the plane at the runway.



Anyway, I hope you recover soon, and get to work rebuilding or shopping for another or whatever makes sense, so we can fly together.



-Dana



At 02:40 PM 6/18/2008, william sullivan wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of the news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME what happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the engine to slow the plane down. I was concerned about stopping distances, and considering brakes and stronger legs. (see previous posts to the list about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT ready to fly, and neither was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane near the end of the runway. If it had stayed down, I could have stopped it with no problem. Following the advice of club members, I went to WOT to go around. The plane had been turned to the right, so I couldn't just put it down! I got it straight and gradually climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled around to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the climb rate gradual. The second pass was very good, again at 4000rpm. I flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and started to cut power. I put the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. That is all I remember, but my intent was to fly it all the way down. My wife says it looked like a down draft pushed the plane into the ground, buckling one L.G. leg, cartwheeling twice and flipping over. Last thing I remember was just about 2 feet off the ground, looking good. I got the rest from my wife.

People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as there WERE gusts from time to time.

 

Written by William T. Sullivan,

Typed by Norma J. Sullivan

 

 

Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  



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[/b] 	
	


 --

 When Columbus came to America, there were no taxes, no debts, and no pollution.  The women did all the work while the men hunted or fished all day.  Ever since then, a bunch of idiotic do-gooders have been trying to "improve" the place.  	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

At 06:46 PM 6/18/2008, David Key wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!! 	


 What's so funny?  Sailors have spoken of "non puffs" for years.  It's a sudden, brief, lull in an otherwise steady wind.



 -Dana



 

 

 --

  Please let me know if you did not receive this.    [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

Two friends of mine were killed by an "ungust". to explain -Pilot was hot-dogging, 'chopping cotton' very low, pulled up sharply and the gust that was keeping them  aloft just stopped. Dove in from about 100' Citabria.

Showing off has NO place in sensible aviation

do not archive



On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:46 PM, David Key wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!!



 

 

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:27:45 -0400

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

From: d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)

Subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident



Bill,



First, I'm glad you're OK (more or less).  Bad as it was, it could have been a lot worse!



Unless you're in rotor behind obstacles, you won't find downdrafts at 15'.  What you _will_ find is gusts or "un gusts", which can quickly reduce your airspeed from something above stall to below stall... and you drop.  This may have been what happened.  I the aircraft you previously flew, the higher stall speed means such an effect is a smaller percentage of the stall speed, so it's less likely to be a problem.  However, if you're approaching at 35 mph in an airplane that stalls at 30, and you get a 10 mph un-gust... well, you get the picture.  Add to this the inoperative ASI, the tendency of the plane to pitch up when you reduce power and the low inertia of such a light plane, and it's even worse.  That's why in an ultralight you don't just "fly the plane to the ground", but (to the perspective of a pilot with GA experience) you literally DIVE the plane at the runway.



Anyway, I hope you recover soon, and get to work rebuilding or shopping for another or whatever makes sense, so we can fly together.



-Dana



At 02:40 PM 6/18/2008, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of the news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME what happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the engine to slow the plane down. I was concerned about stopping distances, and considering brakes and stronger legs. (see previous posts to the list about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT ready to fly, and neither was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane near the end of the runway. If it had stayed down, I could have stopped it with no problem. Following the advice of club members, I went to WOT to go around. The plane had been turned to the right, so I couldn't just put it down! I got it straight and gradually climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled around to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the climb rate gradual. The second pass was very good, again at 4000rpm. I flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and started to cut power. I put the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. That is all I remember, but my intent was to fly it all the way down. My wife says it looked like a down draft pushed the plane into the ground, buckling one L.G. leg, cartwheeling twice and flipping over. Last thing I remember was just about 2 feet off the ground, looking good. I got the rest from my wife.

People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as there WERE gusts from time to time.

 

Written by William T. Sullivan,

Typed by Norma J. Sullivan

 

 

Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
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--

 When Columbus came to America, there were no taxes, no debts, and no pollution.  The women did all the work while the men hunted or fished all day.  Ever since then, a bunch of idiotic do-gooders have been trying to "improve" the place. 	  Quote: 	
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 [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

you literally DIVE the plane at the runway. You see this  VIC  Remember it 

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 6/18/2008 6:35:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  d-m-hague(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  you    literally DIVE the plane at the  runway. 	




Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

  [quote][b]

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident

Hi All



When most people think of wind gusts they think of a sudden rush of wind coming at them or flying into them head on.



I believe what is meant by un-gust are actually just gust of wind  that moves [In the same direction as the aircraft is traveling] (Sorry I don't know how to do italics).



This would make it appear that the wind has slowed or stopped relative to the motion of the plane.  I think when that happens, you loose lift and then start to sink until you 



A. Move out of the still air, (relative to the A/C) 



B.The plane accelerates back up above stall speed or



C. Ends up on the ground.



I always try and carry a safe margin of speed on approach until I'm just above the ground within safe bounce altitude and then bleed off airspeed until touch down.



Should I encounter a 10 to 15 mph gust from behind,  my airspeed should still be above stall speed and continue flying until the plane accelerates with the gust or flies out of it.

 

Un-Gust is as good a name as any for a generic term for this type of wind effect.  



Just My $.02



Carlos G.

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

I remember wearing the brakes out on my CGS Hawk, taxing it up and down

the runway (back in 1983) before I ever flew it. I did solo in a 

Cessna 150 after 4 hours and

spent about 2 hours in a two-seat QuickSilver so I had some training. 

I can only see out of one eye,

but I discovered that wasn't nearley the problem I though it would be.

My fricking "Dealer" lived about 40 miles north of me and never could 

find the time to come look at the plane to see if it

was built according to the plans. If you guys think "Kolb" plans have 

some deficiencies,

you should have seen mine and if you think Kolbs are hard to 

build...I was not even sure

if the wings were upside down or not.

Anyway - he told me that if I would fly it up to his place, he would 

take a good look at it

and make sure everything was OK. Back then, the Ultralight factories 

were going full bore, and the

market was awash with new designs. And "knockoffs of new designs, and 

knockoffs of the knockoffs.

Somebody would bring a new one up every two or three weeks, put it 

together & try to fly it

the next day. There were plans with bicycle wheels for landing gear & 

worse - neat.

So mine (being the state-of -the-art) looked pretty good. Back then, 

(state of the art) meant

double surfaced wings, ailerons (not spoilers) and mine even had flaps!!

All that being said, I had everyone at the airport help me go over 

the plane before it's first flight.

I don't care who you are - that is always scary. They would find 

things like missing bolts, missing

nuts, missing cotter pins ...etc. Things that would make the aircraft 

difficult or interesting to handle under any

circumstances.



If William would have been flying with us back then he would have fit 

right in. Just kidding.

You just started 20 years too late William.



BTW: I did get there, manage to land and get back. Cheated death again.

Hawk.JPG

Description:

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_________________
Possum

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

-So THAT'S what the hole under the nose of the hawk is for.



The generous FAA inspector who breezed my inspection countered with a  

requirement

that, instead of using my own strip, I had to haul it to one 15 miles  

away for the 40 hour fly-off. ( Less houses

to fall on).  Driving that 15 miles on a flyable morning was a  

stomach churning experience.

By the time I got there the butterflies were attacking my guts bigtime.

BB

do not archive



On 18, Jun 2008, at 10:25 PM, possums wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I remember wearing the brakes out on my CGS Hawk, taxing it up and  

 down

 the runway (back in 1983) before I ever flew it. I did solo in a  

 Cessna 150 after 4 hours and

 spent about 2 hours in a two-seat QuickSilver so I had some  

 training. I can only see out of one eye,

 but I discovered that wasn't nearley the problem I though it would be.

 My fricking "Dealer" lived about 40 miles north of me and never  

 could find the time to come look at the plane to see if it

 was built according to the plans. If you guys think "Kolb" plans  

 have some deficiencies,

 you should have seen mine and if you think Kolbs are hard to  

 build...I was not even sure

 if the wings were upside down or not.

 Anyway - he told me that if I would fly it up to his place, he  

 would take a good look at it

 and make sure everything was OK. Back then, the Ultralight  

 factories were going full bore, and the

 market was awash with new designs. And "knockoffs of new designs,  

 and knockoffs of the knockoffs.

 Somebody would bring a new one up every two or three weeks, put it  

 together & try to fly it

 the next day. There were plans with bicycle wheels for landing gear  

 & worse - neat.

 So mine (being the state-of -the-art) looked pretty good. Back  

 then, (state of the art) meant

 double surfaced wings, ailerons (not spoilers) and mine even had  

 flaps!!

 All that being said, I had everyone at the airport help me go over  

 the plane before it's first flight.

 I don't care who you are - that is always scary. They would find  

 things like missing bolts, missing

 nuts, missing cotter pins ...etc. Things that would make the  

 aircraft difficult or interesting to handle under any

 circumstances.



 If William would have been flying with us back then he would have  

 fit right in. Just kidding.

 You just started 20 years too late William.



 BTW: I did get there, manage to land and get back. Cheated death  

 again.



 <Hawk.JPG>

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident

It is true about the gusts of wind, it is possible to be flying along and suddenly lose 10 MPH of airspeed due to a gust from behind,  or suddenly loosing a gust that is coming from the front.   If you are flying a slow approach within 10 MPH of stall speed, you will suddenly find yourself stalled very close to the ground.   



Downdraft's do not occur close to the ground unless there is some extraordinary circumstance like high wind next to a hanger, or a bad thunderstorm in the area...



10 MPH gusts are very common, even on a nice day.   It is a good idea to keep approach speeds very high, especially in ultralight aircraft like the Kolbs.   In a new type of airplane far different than he has ever flown before, without an airspeed indicator, William did not have much of a chance.   Don't give up on Kolbs's William, they are pretty easy to fly with a little bit of instruction in this type of plane and an airspeed indicator !!!



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

dcreech3(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

Good point Dana makes about slow airplanes -- I think the implication is that the oft-cited "1.3 times stall speed" rule of thumb for approach speed may not be enough, since that point-three margin is not very many MPH when you stall at 35!  

  

 Regarding the "low inertia of such a light plane", though -- I would have thought that's an asset rather than a liability in that situation, since it allows the plane to accelerate more quickly to regain the airspeed that's lost when an "un-gust" or decreasing headwind is encountered. Wrong?

  

 Regards to all,

 Lee

 Firestar II 



  	  Quote: 	
		    Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:27:45 -0400

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

From: d-m-hague(at)comcast.net

Subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident



Bill,



First, I'm glad you're OK (more or less).  Bad as it was, it could have been a lot worse!



Unless you're in rotor behind obstacles, you won't find downdrafts at 15'.  What you _will_ find is gusts or "un gusts", which can quickly reduce your airspeed from something above stall to below stall... and you drop.  This may have been what happened.  I the aircraft you previously flew, the higher stall speed means such an effect is a smaller percentage of the stall speed, so it's less likely to be a problem.  However, if you're approaching at 35 mph in an airplane that stalls at 30, and you get a 10 mph un-gust... well, you get the picture.  Add to this the inoperative ASI, the tendency of the plane to pitch up when you reduce power and the low inertia of such a light plane, and it's even worse.  That's why in an ultralight you don't just "fly the plane to the ground", but (to the perspective of a pilot with GA experience) you literally DIVE the plane at the runway.



Anyway, I hope you recover soon, and get to work rebuilding or shopping for another or whatever makes sense, so we can fly together.



-Dana



 	  Quote: 	
		   	
	
The i’m Talkathon starts 6/24/08.  For now, give amongst yourselves. Learn More  [quote][b]

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident

After flying a Firestar for 21 years, a smooth landing can be accomplished every time by actually diving the plane toward the runway. I use a 60 mph approach speed at about 3500 RPM. This sounds hot and it is, but remember that a Firestar is light with a lot of drag and the speed dissipates quickly. Cut the power just before touchdown (novices should keep the power on until the aircraft is on the ground and rolling). There is a technique to it and it takes practice. After flying the Kolbra (591 lbs) for a few hours, I don't need to dive the plane down as it has a lot more weight and inertia. The Firestar needs that airspeed to punch through wind gusts and lifting thermals. Bill Sullivan was the victim of a lack of airspeed. Without experience and no ASI, he was setup for failure. The Kolbs are one the safest aircraft to fly, but it takes some good training and practice to make a good landing.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

My MkIII is just as fat and heavy with the resultant inertia.   

Carrying power all the way in is

enticing because it is easier.  I do it myself but actually, cutting  

power out on long final

or even the end of downwind is really good practice.  It makes you  

more aware of

wind and rate of descent.

BB

still windy, car painting.



On 19, Jun 2008, at 11:56 AM, Ralph B wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 After flying a Firestar for 21 years, a smooth landing can be  

 accomplished every time by actually diving the plane toward the  

 runway. I use a 60 mph approach speed at about 3500 RPM. This  

 sounds hot and it is, but remember that a Firestar is light with a  

 lot of drag that dissipates quickly. Cut the power just before  

 touchdown (novices should keep the power on until the aircraft is  

 on the ground and rolling). There is a technique to it and it takes  

 practice. After flying the Kolbra (591 lbs) for a few hours, I  

 don't need to dive the plane down as it has a lot more weight and  

 inertia. The Firestar needs that airspeed to punch through wind  

 gusts and lifting thermals. Bill Sullivan was the victim of a lack  

 of airspeed. Without experience and no ASI he was setup for  

 failure. The Kolbs are one the safest aircraft to fly, but it takes  

 some good training and practice to make a good landing.



 Ralph



 --------

 Ralph B

 Original Firestar 447

 N91493 E-AB

 21 years flying it

 Kolbra 912UL

 N20386

 0 years flying it





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188604#188604

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident

My Mark III  weights 425# empty. All of our landings are done at idle from the base leg to touchdown. I only add power if I am coming up short or wind interferes. 



My indicated stall is 46mph my normal approach is 65mph or about 1.4X stall. In rough air with plenty or rotor at the end of the runway I have pushed 70 and 75mph on the approach to cut through the crap.



It seems to work fine. All of my training has involved making approaches and landings at idle.  The Mk III actually floats down the runway a fair distance before touching the tail wheel 1stwith the 65mph approach.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

<Good point Dana makes about slow airplanes -- I think the implication is 

<that the oft-cited "1.3 times stall speed" rule of thumb for approach speed 

<may not be enough, since that point-three margin is not very many MPH when 

<you stall at 35!  

 

<Regarding the "low inertia of such a light plane", though -- I would have 

<thought that's an asset rather than a liability in that situation, since it 

<allows the plane to accelerate more quickly to regain the airspeed that's 

<lost when an "un-gust" or decreasing headwind is encountered. 

<Wrong?

 

Lee,



For a FireFly with a 27 mph stall speed, it might be better to add a 20 mph 

margin so that you do not run out of lift on the down wind pattern leg.  

This computes out to about 1.75.  Some may say that you should not be flying 

a UL in 20 mph winds, but who knows for sure that conditions will not change 

during the day.  



Low inertia should/will allow quick acceleration if and only if you slam the 

stick forward to get out of the stall immediately and return to flying.  If 

you don't do this you are in a high drag configuration with a high rate of 

deceleration and loosing altitude rapidly. 



As I see it.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



do not archive

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

Grant,

 My MK-3 weighs 623 empty and stalls below 30 (with vg's) and just me 170# in it.I'd almost bet you have some error in your indicated airspeed.65 is my economy cruise speed!



---

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: Re: William Sullivans Accident

Gaman,



This is with me an my instructor so 317# total.



Yes I think my asi is off about 10mph fast. I plan to check it with the gps method.

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

At 08:47 PM 6/19/2008, Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  For a FireFly with a 27 mph stall speed, it might be better to add a 20 mph

margin...


	


In my US, which stalls at about the same speed, I fly final at 40-45 

depending on conditions.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Low inertia should/will allow quick acceleration if and only if you slam the

stick forward to get out of the stall immediately and return to flying.  If

you don't do this you are in a high drag configuration with a high rate of

deceleration and loosing altitude rapidly.


	


Actually, no.  Low inertia means quick acceleration from power added, but 

not from gravity.  The lower weight of the plane means less potential 

energy, too.  A heavy object and a light one fall at the same rate, as 

Galileo proved some 400 years ago.



-Dana

--

  When I was young I was told that anyone could be President. I'm beginning 

to believe it.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

At 07:18 PM 6/23/08 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Actually, no.  Low inertia means quick acceleration from power added, but 

not from gravity.  The lower weight of the plane means less potential 

energy, too.  A heavy object and a light one fall at the same rate, as 

Galileo proved some 400 years ago.




	


Dana,



In a departure stall, all the power has already been added.  The only way 

out of it is to move the stick forward.



Potential energy is a function of mass and height.  If you want to fly at 

equal potential energies, the FireFly will have to fly at greater 

altitude.



You are right about Galileo where the assumption is made that the objects 

have equal drag, but then again he was not dropping different models of 

Kolb aircraft.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: William Sullivans Accident

This may be a repeat. But I was told long ago that you never get in   

trouble by pushing the stick FORWARD -- but you sure can by pulling  

it back.

Still most good advice  (IMHO

do not archive

On Jun 23, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 08:47 PM 6/19/2008, Jack B. Hart wrote:

> For a FireFly with a 27 mph stall speed, it might be better to add  

> a 20 mph

> margin...

 In my US, which stalls at about the same speed, I fly final at  

 40-45 depending on conditions.

> Low inertia should/will allow quick acceleration if and only if  

> you slam the

> stick forward to get out of the stall immediately and return to  

> flying.  If

> you don't do this you are in a high drag configuration with a high  

> rate of

> deceleration and loosing altitude rapidly.

 Actually, no.  Low inertia means quick acceleration from power  

 added, but not from gravity.  The lower weight of the plane means  

 less potential energy, too.  A heavy object and a light one fall at  

 the same rate, as Galileo proved some 400 years ago.

 -Dana

 --

  When I was young I was told that anyone could be President. I'm  

 beginning to believe it.

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