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Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
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knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Hi John Iv' e been flying since 1979 .. Soloed in a Acrobat C-150....Â 

  The Â Compass VOR, Â ADF, and YES the SectionalÂ was the only way to fly....

  At least until 88 when I took up HangGliding 

  

 

  120 GA hours - Longest XC 500 miles 2000 hours Plus inÂ HangGliders - Â longest XC 81 miles....Â Lots of trees up here 8-(

  5 hours in sail planes - Just around the patch and some thermal and ridge soaring...

 

  10 hours in Trikes - maybe 2 hours of XC all dead reckoning Â ( my new love )

  Also Two Static Line Parachute jumps... Â  3000 ft straight down...

  That was enough hahaha 

  

 

  I suppose the faster you fly the more helpful the GPS can be to helping you stay

  Well ahead of what your flying.... Â But it seems to me THATS all the more reason

  to know how to use the compass and dead reckon if the thing Fails... At 250 kts

  imagine how little time would need to pass for you to be WAY off course...

  

 

  

 

  Today the way I fly I like to enjoy the RosesÂ as I pass over them...

  Â InÂ HGs I rarely reached 60 kts Â usually teens to 30s ( airspeed)..

  In Trikes its about the same for KolbsÂ 50 to 60 is about average...

  

 

  The GPS is a great tool for quickly figureing fuel requirements once your in the air...

  

 

  It can tell you pretty quickly how close you are to your preflightÂ Â estimate ..

  

 

  No more do we have to pass a couple predetermined checkpoints and watch the clock

  to know how close we are...

  

 

  

 

  

 

  Mark

  

 

  

 

  

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Mark:

  

 That's very interesting.

  

 Unless I missed it, you didn't tell us where you  were from, what you are building or flying, and who you are.

  

 You can quickly figure fuel with an E6B, along with  a lot of other valuable info.  Do you use an E6B?

  

 I also learned to fly cross country by pilotage and  dead reckoning.  Flew that way through most of my Army career, and until  1993, when I got my first GPS.  I have a few more cross country hours than  you do over the last 40 years and use my GPS for my primary nav  instrument.  It is a very important instrument, very reliable, improving my  flight safety many times over my back up of pilotage and dead reckoning.   Once in a while I will hit a dead spot where no GPS signal can be  obtained.  Usually lasts for 20 or 30 miles.  That has only happened 3  or 4 times in the last 2,500+ hours of flying.  I have flown with GPS all  over CONUS, Canada, and Alaska.  Would not leave home without  it.

  

 Recommend you get a GPS, use it and discover the  many tasks it can perform for you.  You will be amazed.

  

 Right off the top of my head, I think knowing what  your ground speed is at all times is a function that is impossible to obtain  constantly using pilotage and dead reckoning.  Another is sunset at your  destination, how long it will take to get there and how much fuel it will  take.  Nearest airports have saved my buns many times on cross country  flights.  John W and I used that feature many times during our last cross  country flight out West.  We encountered several thunderstorms, and many  days of high winds, and periods of reduced visibility.  Finding fuel and a  safe landing area was quick and at our finger tips at all times.

  

 Take care,

  

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

  

  

  

 ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Hi John

  Sorry about that..Â 

  I'm up Â here in New England... Not building much of anything these days..

  Maybe a Few RCs now and then... Rather spend my limited freeÂ time flying instead of building...

  Although I would love to build a Carbon Dragon Sail Plane like a buddy of mine has..

  It has a Sink Rate of 98 ft per Â min.. That give you the potential of soaring all day  Â 

  Finding 100 fpm lift is very common on a good soaring day.... Â Great GAS Mileage 

  

 

  I do own and use a GPS Â a garmin 76CS and a Etrex Legend. I Â didn't mean to implyÂ 

  I don't use them.. I just don't rely on it for my primaryÂ NAV tool..... If it fails so what I was using the compass and dead reckoning anyway.... Â I fly the compass and look out frontÂ 

  pickingÂ way points to head for... Â When I get there I'll look at the GPS to confirm how closeÂ 

  IÂ am to its course line... Â It quickly confirms how well I'm doing..Â 

  

 

  GPS is my back up tool to confirm what I already know.. Â Like I said real time GS is whatÂ 

  I like mostÂ about them.. Â Makes figuringÂ fuel needs quick and simple..

  

 

  BTWÂ 

  was in AK last Aug.. Would have loved to got some air time over some of those Glaciers

  we hike on... Â 

  

 

  Mark

  

 

  

 

  

 

   Mark:

  Â 

  That's very interesting.

  Â 

  Unless I missed it, you didn't tell us where you were from, what you are building or flying, and who you are.Â 

   You can quickly figure fuel with an E6B, along with  a lot of other valuable info.Â  Do you use an E6B?

  

 

  Yea I own the Circular Slide Rule.. No battery powered version there either.. 

  

 

  

 

   Â 

   I also learned to fly cross country by pilotage and  dead reckoning.Â  Flew that way through most of my Army career, and until  1993, when I got my first GPS.Â Â 

  

 

  I have a few more cross country hours than  you do over the last 40 years and use my GPS for my primary nav  instrument.

  

 

  It is a very important instrument, very reliable, improving my  flight safety many times over my back up of pilotage and dead reckoning.

  

 

  Â   Once in a while I will hit a dead spot where no GPS signal can be  obtained.Â  Usually lasts for 20 or 30 miles.Â  That has only happened 3  or 4 times in the last 2,500+ hours of flying.

  Â Â 

  I have flown with GPS all  over CONUS, Canada, and Alaska.Â  Would not leave home without  it.

   Â 

   Recommend you get a GPS, use it and discover the  many tasks it can perform for you.Â  You will be amazed.

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

   Â 

   Right off the top of my head, I think knowing what  your ground speed is at all times is a function that is impossible to obtain  constantly using pilotage and dead reckoning.Â  Another is sunset at your  destination, how long it will take to get there and how much fuel it will  take.Â  Nearest airports have saved my buns many times on cross country  flights.Â  John W and I used that feature many times during our last cross  country flight out West.Â  We encountered several thunderstorms, and many  days of high winds, and periods of reduced visibility.Â  Finding fuel and a  safe landing area was quick and at our finger tips at all times.

   Â 

   Take care,

   Â 

   john h

   mkIII

   Titus, Alabama

   Â 

   Â 

   Â 

   ---

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Nothing wrong with reading highway and other signs! -- I even carry binocularsdo  not archive



On Jun 22, 2008, at 12:19 PM, knowvne(at)aol.com (knowvne(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]Jack Good Tip, but dont the locals get upset using those things for Race Pylons 

 

 

 Back home in CA were I got lost we use to joke about flying low enough to read  

 Free way signs hahaha

 Today I use a compass  most flights and the GPS as my confirmation... 

 

 

 

 BTW  I have family in Winchester and Nabb IN..

 

 

 Know any Vaughns or Johnsons  down there?

 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Nothing wrong with reading highway and other signs!  -- I even carry  binoculars>>

  

 Why not Russ?  Here flying  by following  the railways used to be standard practice. You just dropped a little lower to  read the station sign. Locally,  I often follow the pub signs as I know  where most of them are.

  

 My ex partner in the Eurostar is a railway buff. He  knows where all the old lines which are now dismantled used to run. While flying  he will point to a long straight field or a hedge an say `Thats where the  old  Bath and Radstock  line used to be` and pinpoint his  position.

  

 Talking of flying low. The No 1 Training School of  the Royal Flying Corps, before it became the Royal Air Force between the Wars,  was on Salisbury Plain.  There was a serious proposal from the RFC that  Stonehenge ( all of 20ft high) be removed as a danger to  flying.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

It has a Sink Rate of 98 ft per  min.. That  give you the potential of soaring all day   

 Finding 100 fpm lift is very common on a good  soaring day....  Great GAS Mileage >>

  

 Hi Mark,

 it was a long time ago when I was in gliding but  98fpm doesn`t mean much to me without the distance that you fly in that  time.  I learned to fly in a stick and string glider that would fly in a  straight line about 20 miles before it hit the ground from a mile high. When  I  finished gliding I had a 19 metre plastic beast that would do over 40  miles from a mile high, and at nearly twice the speed.

  

 The way to go is a motor glider. Makes you  independent of launching facilities, gets you home when the day goes flat and is  so slipery that it gives cross country MPG undreamed of in any other  machine.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Hi Mark,

   It was a long time ago when I was in gliding but  98 fpm doesn`t mean much to me without the distance that you fly in that  time.

  

 

   Â I learned to fly in a stick and string glider that would fly in a straight line about 20 miles before it hit the ground from a mile high. When IÂ  finished gliding I had a 19 metre plastic beast that would do over 40 miles from a mile high, and at nearly twice the speed.

  Â 

  The way to go is a motor glider. Makes you independent of launching facilities, gets you home when the day goes flat and is so slipery that it gives cross country MPG undreamed of in any other machine.

  Â 

  Cheers

  Â 

  Pat

  

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

 

  

 

  PatÂ 

  You seem to be in a Hurry to get someplace...  Thats not the goal in the Dragon... Its purpose is to soar...

  Beleive me you WILL be looking up at steves Dragon while your packing up your motor glider... Â 

  He may have got there slower but as the sun sets he does get there and is still in the air to prove it hahahaha

  

 

  

 

  Below are some specs the Carbon Dragon was designed to meet or exceed ....

  and here is a Web site of a Photo of me soaring beside Steve in his CarbonDragon

  as well as some Pix of his bird..

  

 

  http://www.sailplanehomebuilders.com/steve_arndt_cd.htm

 

  

 

  

 

  Steves Â plane is modified and a bit lighter than the plansÂ call for so his sink rate reflects this...

  But even a stock Carbon dragon is amazing to watch......Â 

  

 

  Steves Plane is also Super Clean just like a fast XC Â ship would be..

  

 

  PatÂ 

  The purpose of a Carbon Dragon is to Exploit Micro LIft... Very Light Lift in very small pockets..

  Also to take advantage of dynamic soaring conditions...

  Climbing in Micro Lift Â is something the typical sailplane just can't do given its speed and Â turn

  radus when thermalling..Â 

  

 

  

 

  

 

  A carbon dragon can easly Â orbit inside the bases of a base ball field.. Â It has the same Â turn

  radious as your Typical Flex wing Hangglider but Half the sink rate .... Â 

  

 

  I often out climb sail planes in my Hangglider because Im able to turn alot tighter and climb inÂ 

  the Thermals coreÂ .. Steve also does this and with Â half my Sink rate so climbs much faster...

  

 

  

 

  

 

   Spec: Â Required for exploiting microlift ... mostly from Gary Osoba

   100 fpm     Very low sink rateÂ 

   Â 25 mph     Very low speed at above sink rateÂ 

   Extremely small thermalling circle diameter (directly related to the speed squared ... v2)Â 

 

   Â 26:1Â Â A decent glide ratio at a respectable speed ...

   

 

 

  Â 

  

 

  Pat BTW Â 

  Todays top of the line Hangliders Â which we call RWs Â have the same performance as your old stick and String Glider...

  The Â difference is these gliders let you land on your feet in someones back yard  Oh and it fits on the Roof of your car..

  

 

  

 

  Â Mark

   

 

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or?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

p://forums.matronics.com

ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
  

      

 Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! 

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Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%: 



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 It doesn't just happen to Kolbers, Brother Kinne....one fine summer Sunday 

 morning in 1955an Eastern Air Lines Martin 404 did that very thing at Bowman 

 Field in Louisville.


	


And the USAF folks have have been remiss at times.....



Working the tower at Yokota AB Japan one day, and a C-5 inbound, Tachikawa AB 

is about 3 1/2  miles southeast of Yokota. We hear a rather frantic Japanese  

voice come up on guard channel, "Big-a bird on final, GO AWAY! GO AWAY!" If  he 

had gotten in, he wouldn't have been able to get out...3700 feet at Tachi vs 

11,000 at Yokota.



Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Hi Mark,

really interesting   How is the dragon launched, cable or just leap off  a hill.?



Things have obviously  moved on  since I flew gliders. I had a 19mtre span Jantar and only flirted with hang gliders for a short while.  I have always envied the hang gliders ability to stick the whole thing on a car and travel to and from a gliding site.



Home built gliders are very few and far between in the UK. I dont know anyone who has built one although there are some stirrings with a glider to operate withinn the ultralight spec at the moment.



Looks as though the Dragon would be really fun. Provided you don`t want to go anywhere.  It seems to me that Hangliders and paragliders are reinventing the wheel and doing everything that the the gliding movement went through in the 30`s. First the flight sticking to hills, then the venturing into thermals, then  going from thermal to thermal to go cross country. The perfect answer to those who think that gliding has got too technical



Somewhere there is a Dagling in which I have  a Â£5 share. I never had the nerve to fly the thing. In my gliding club we launched it with a winch cable once. I think that with 1000ft launch the Dagling landed about 10 seconds after the cable end hit the ground.



Cheers



Pat

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Hi Mark,

   really interestingÂ Â  How is the dragon  launched, cable or just leap offÂ  a hill.?

  

 

  Hi Pat

  The Dragon Kit is designed with Bomb Bay Doors below the cockpit so you could foot launch it if you wanted to

  but Steve built his with a floor..Its so light that an Ultralite can tow it... Â He's also Â launched it a few times

  by a Car tow..

  

 

  

 

  Things have obviously Â moved onÂ  since I  flew gliders. I had a 19mtre span Jantar and only flirted with hang gliders for  a short while. Â 

 

  I have always envied the hang gliders ability to stick the  whole thing on a car and travel to and from a gliding site.

  

 

  Pat

  They have indeed......Â 

  Today we even have sailplanes that are Electric powered using a Folding boomÂ that comes up behind the cockpit..Â 

 

  

 

  The Apis Sail plane I believe even gives you the ability to recharge the Battery in flight byÂ Simply raising the boom and letting the

  Prop wind mill as you ridge soar or climb out in that Â Ripper to cloud base.. 

  Now THAT sounds like the perfect Air toy if you can afford one.. 

  

 

  And yes HangGliders have greatly evolved as well in the past 20 years I've been flying them.....10:1 to 20:1 Alum Tubes to

  carbon fiber spars .. Â Transporting them to various sites Â is a big plusÂ and in fact around the world is possible...

  Ive flown in Sydney, AU and Hawaii ... Fun Flying Vac....

  

 

  Also some gliders can now be short packed Â to 8 ft.. This does require some Extra assembly once your ready

  to set her up but its very portable and great for traveling...Â 

  

 

  

 

  

 

   Â 

   Home built gliders are very few and far between in  the UK. I don't know anyone who has built one although there are some stirrings  with a glider to operate within the ultralight spec at the moment.

  

 

  PatÂ 

  IÂ believe there is at least ONE Carbon Dragon on Â your side of the pond... I thought I read some place about one being built

  Â over there...

  

 

  

 

  

 

   Â 

   Looks as though the Dragon would be really fun.  Provided you don`t want to go anywhere. Â 

  

 

  Well they fit in a trailer just like the RaceÂ ships do Â so you can GO XC and land out.. Your slow enough that your Chace crew easily keep under you as you go.... Its nice sometimes to have some eyes on the surface confirming Wind Direction and slope of chosen LZ 

  

 

  

 

  It seems to me that Hangliders and  paragliders are reinventing the wheel and doing everything that the the gliding  movement went through in the 30`s. First the flight sticking to hills, then the  venturing into thermals, thenÂ  going from thermal to thermal to go cross  country.Â 

  

 

  The fun thing about HangGliding is you often never know where you'll land...

  Â And when you do you meet some amazed people just fullÂ of Questions...Â 

  They're shocked to learn you just flew 100 miles in a KITE hahahaha ...

  BTW Â I believe the Open Record is 450 milesÂ and to a Declared Goal just under 400miles..... Â  Â  Â 

  My longest is only 81 but have many 50 to 70 mile flights We have Oceans of trees Â here that we have cross over

  So Distance can be a reall challenge for us... I think our Area REcord is 125

  

 

  

 

  Mark

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