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Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

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jefflinebaugh(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

Anybody up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I think it would be good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas to help each other stay out of trouble. 

 

 About a year ago, I set up a deal with an insurer to give a 10% discount for taking a formal initial and annual recurrent training course in the rocket. To date exactly "NOBODY" has taken advantage of the program! Is it because we are all "better" than to need that? (I know I'm not that good...) Is it that the training program is worthless? (If so, I'd sure like suggestions on how to make it better!) Is it that the 10% discount won't even pay for the gas to do the training...probably? Oh well... 

 

 In any case, I know I could learn from others experiences in the rocket. Perhaps we could all come with one "there I was" rocket story to share... ya know...one that we could all benefit from? Flying or maintenance related? 

 

 In the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and incidents I could find in those particular types. The hope was that if we knew where the trouble areas were maybe we could avoid repeating the same errors. Perhaps it would be revealing to do the same for the Rocket? I think it would show that the airplane was not at fault in virtually all cases for the Rocket. Perhaps we should all look each other in the eye and remind ourselves to be weary of the "control actuator" in our aircraft... 

 

 Whaddaya guys think? Could we find an hour during the week to dedicate to safety and accident prevention?

 _________________

 Jeff Linebaugh 

 jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net (jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net) 

 F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy... 

 Collierville, TN  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

       [quote][b]

andrew(at)nzactive.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

Count me in, for sure if I actually make it to  OSH.

  

 And thx for the thoughts, Jeff. I hear ya. NB, I said most  of my "dual" instruction was in the Citabria (10 hours or so of dual  aerobatic training) but I've also had a few sessions of dual  aerobatic "coaching" in the Rocket, a little dual aero stuff in my  RV-4....and have done lots of solo aeros in the Rocket, to the point that, as I  have embarrassedly admitted, that I find it a bit boring. (And am therefore  wondering what I'm doing wrong! It's a ROCKET!!) . So, while I think you guys  are basically correct, and I will, indeed, get some training sorted out for  pushing on with more interesting manuevres, I do wonder if there's a time and a  place for extending your aerobatic envelope, very carefully, very gently, on  your own. I mean, you can't get dual for every single experience you'll face as  a pilot, right? I'm certainly not proposing jumping into  aerobatics without training - I actually have quite a bit of aerobatic training  already. So presumably once you understand the basic principles of aerobatic  flying, and have a fair amount of time in type with the brown stuff up and the  blue stuff down....well, I'm not sure.  I certainly agree,  unreservedly, with the concept of taking safely seriously, getting lots of  training, and definitely NOT believing everything you read. And if there  were any Rocket-qualified instructors in NZ I'd certainly get more instruction  from them....and ditto, if I knew anyone who could give dual in an Extra. Except  I don't think we have any in New Zealand. It's, um, a small country! The entire  population of NZ is about the same as San Diego.

  

 I think the idea of an accident/incident summary for  Rockets is an excellent one, and would be happy to help, Jeff. I've  personally trawled the NTSB records pretty comprehensively, for all sorts of  aircraft, and it seems that aerobatics/inpromptu airshows/buzzjobs are an  extraordinarily high proportion of the total in many high performance  experimentals. (For a larger sample group, for instance, take a quick squiz at  the RV4 records on the NTSB database.) Pilot error can happen to all of us - to  err is human - and yes, it seems that most accidents seem to be caused  by pilot error, and we need to do our damndest to avoid that, particularly in  these high performance machines. Still, I worry a little about the aircraft as  well - Richard Van Grunsven designed an extraordinary series of aircraft, but I  understand that he doesn't approve of his airframes being hotted up and hauled  through the air a la Rocket....and he, surely, knows a fair bit about  aeronautical design. My main fear is overstressing my tail feathers. Was  the aircraft REALLY designed to have a VNE as high as a Rocket? How about VNO  and VA? Anyone know how many Rocket accidents have involved vertical or  horizontal stabiliser failure?

  

 For the record, with 400 happy hours of Rocket time  under my belt, mainly mountain flying, I don't think there are unsafe aircraft,  per se. I just wonder if they have any weak points, apart from the obvious ones  like being a little nose heavy, and, um, well, that's it for weak points.  Rockets are great machines! But seriously, anyone care to comment on the  strength of the HRII tail, which as far as I know is stock RV4? Was the tail  beefed up for the F1???

  

 Andrew

  

  



   From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff  Linebaugh

Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:16 AM

To:  rocket-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Rocket Safety Seminar  at OSH

 

  

Anybody  up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I think it would be  good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas to help each other stay out  of trouble. 



About a year ago, I set  up a deal with an insurer to give a 10% discount for taking a formal initial and  annual recurrent training course in the rocket. To date exactly "NOBODY" has  taken advantage of the program! Is it because we are all "better" than to need  that? (I know I'm not that good...) Is it that the training program is  worthless? (If so, I'd sure like suggestions on how to make it better!) Is it  that the 10% discount won't even pay for the gas to do the training...probably?  Oh well... 



In any case, I know I  could learn from others experiences in the rocket. Perhaps we could all come  with one "there I was" rocket story to share... ya know...one that we could all  benefit from? Flying or maintenance related? 



In  the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and incidents I  could find in those particular types. The hope was that if we knew where the  trouble areas were maybe we could avoid repeating the same errors. Perhaps it  would be revealing to do the same for the Rocket? I think it would show that the  airplane was not at fault in virtually all cases for the Rocket. Perhaps we  should all look each other in the eye and remind ourselves to be weary of the  "control actuator" in our aircraft... 



Whaddaya guys think?  Could we find an hour during the week to dedicate to safety and accident  prevention?

_________________

Jeff Linebaugh  

jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net (jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net)  

F1 "Sport" #33, 135  hours of shear joy... 

Collierville,  TN 

<![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> 

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

Great idea Jeff,

 Count me in.

 Jim Stone

 110 hrs HRII

 Louisville KY

 [quote]   ---

smokyray(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

Two's in Jeff, I'll be there most of the week. I'm staying with my wingman from OIF who is currently the 12AF Chief of safety and owns an RV4. He is interested and maybe can help...



Smokey



--- On Fri, 6/27/08, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>

Subject: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 9:56 PM



            _filtered #yiv1802643476 { font-family:Verdana;}  _filtered #yiv1802643476 {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} #yiv1802643476 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 A:link { COLOR:#006699;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR:#006699;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 A:visited { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv1802643476 P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.EmailStyle15 { COLOR:black;} #yiv1802643476 SPAN.postbody1 { LETTER-SPACING:10.8pt;} #yiv1802643476 DIV.Section1 { }  Great idea Jeff,

 Count me in.

 Jim Stone

 110 hrs HRII

 Louisville KY

 [quote]   ---

larry(at)ncproto.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

Count me in too.  I’m thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ???  

   

Larry E. James  

Bellevue, WA  

Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008)  

Rocket (still in basement)  

       [quote][b]

Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

To all in the Rocket community........

 

 I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. 

 

 Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits.....  Flies like a good plane should. 

 

 Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy....  It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. 

 

 A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun...  In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. 

 

 Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons.......  A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. 

 

 Just my two cents.......  

 

 Weav

 

 Larry James wrote: [quote]                 <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->      

Count me in too.  I’m thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ???   

    

Larry E. James   

Bellevue, WA   

Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008)   

Rocket (still in basement)   

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution







Checked by AVG. 

  	
 [b]

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

Well said Fred,

 I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and  make it what YOU think it should be.  I'll be glad to help.

 All those in favor?

 Jim Stone

 [quote]   ---

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

I agree to some extent with what you are saying, except the  antipathy with safety seminars. Depending on its objective, a safety seminaar is  a very valuable thing, because those folks who know could just pass information  along that might save my life. And even if a thousand other people sit around  bored to tears, it was all worth it. 

 Nico

  



   From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred  Weaver

Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 5:05 PM

To:  rocket-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Rocket Safety  Seminar at OSH

 

To all in the Rocket community........



I'm sure  this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of  the flyers too. 



Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap.  It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits.....  Flies like a  good plane should. 



Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably  some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and  good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane  to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy....  It's just a fabulous airplane that  some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I  hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company  or program. 



A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun...  In  most hands, it is a wonderful thing. 



Personally, I hate attending  "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong  reasons.......  A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided  to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that  continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the  results "they" produced. 



Just my two cents.......   



Weav



Larry James wrote:  [quote]      (at)font-face { 	font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { 	font-family: Tahoma; } (at)page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; } P.MsoNormal { 	FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif" } LI.MsoNormal { 	FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif" } DIV.MsoNormal { 	FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif" } A:link { 	COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { 	COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { 	COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { 	COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { 	FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; TEXT-DECORATION: none; mso-style-type: personal-compose } .MsoChpDefault { 	mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.Section1 { 	page: Section1 }     <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->      

Count me in too.  I’m thinking the biggest hurdle may    be just getting the word out ???   

   

Larry E. James   

Bellevue, WA   

Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008)   

Rocket (still in basement)

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution





Checked by AVG. 

  	




href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

andrew(at)nzactive.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

I agree, re the safety of the Rocket, and am surprised to  hear it's getting a "bad rap" - that's news to me. It's very stable on  the ground, for a taildragger, and built strong. So long as it's built right,  and not too many "experiments" are conducted when it comes to the powerplant  selection and installation, I think it's a good machine. As ever, it's the  seat/control interface that seems to be the main problem. 

  

 That said, I didn't get an answer on my question about  the structural integrity of RV tails on Rockets, and with their higher VA  & VNO. I'd be really interested to hear, from people who know, if I'm the  only one with a (slight) question mark about using an RV tail at relatively high  speeds/G loads...

  

 Feel free to email me offlist...

  

 Andrew



   From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim  Stone

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:01 PM

To:  rocket-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Rocket Safety  Seminar at OSH

 

 Well said Fred,

 I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and  make it what YOU think it should be.  I'll be glad to help.

 All those in favor?

 Jim Stone

 [quote]   ---

T.gummo(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

For what its worth, my rocket's  tail is a RV-4.  All the tailing edges of the elevator and rudder have been  beefed up (doubled) with parts supplied from John Harmon.  The rest of the  tail is stock.

  

 I do 95% of my flying at 140 KIAS, at altitude (10500 or  11500), that works out to 170 knots true.  There is 350 hours on the tach  and so far, NO CRACKS or damage of any kind.

  

 I have had it up to 250 KIAS during the test period a  couple of times but have no reason to go that fast during normal  flying.  During descents it is very easy to have the speed increase to 180  KIAS and I can tell by the feel of the controls the difference in  speed.  

  

 Slowest, ugliest Rocket

 But it sure puts a smile on my face.

  

 Tom Gummo

Apple Valley, CA

Harmon Rocket-II,  N561FS

  

 do not archive

  

 http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html



 [quote]   ---

smokyray(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

Andy,



 I researched Rocket mishaps and there are way more ground than air. Since it's inception I can only find 12 fatal mishaps, less than 10% of the number built. Considering the "nature of the beast" it by no means dangerous. The Rocket is a high performance Sport plane, pure and simple. Anyone you has questions as to their capabilities should get proper training or fly something else. 

  Rocket flying should be taken seriously, yet FUN can still be had with proper safety considerations, training and maintenance.  The seminar is a great idea, somebody should take notes (maybe me) to share with those unable to attend. My USAF safety buddy/RV4 driver "mob" has volunteered his time to help. He has a forum tent schedule, timeshare?



See ya at OSH...

Smokey



--- On Tue, 7/1/08, ACTIVE NZ - Andrew <andrew(at)nzactive.com> wrote:

From: ACTIVE NZ - Andrew <andrew(at)nzactive.com>

Subject: RE: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH

To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 12:12 AM



 

I agree, re the safety of the Rocket, and am surprised to 

hear it's getting a "bad rap" - that's news to me. It's very stable on 

the ground, for a taildragger, and built strong. So long as it's built right, 

and not too many "experiments" are conducted when it comes to the powerplant 

selection and installation, I think it's a good machine. As ever, it's the 

seat/control interface that seems to be the main problem. 

 

That said, I didn't get an answer on my question about 

the structural integrity of RV tails on Rockets, and with their higher VA 

& VNO. I'd be really interested to hear, from people who know, if I'm the 

only one with a (slight) question mark about using an RV tail at relatively high 

speeds/G loads...

 

Feel free to email me offlist...

 

Andrew



From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com 

[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim 

Stone

Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:01 PM

To: 

rocket-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Rocket Safety 

Seminar at OSH



Well said Fred,

I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and 

make it what YOU think it should be.  I'll be glad to help.

All those in favor?

Jim Stone



  ---

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