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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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 Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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> John, maybe they had heard about your Sleeping habits? : )Ive not landed
| Quote: | there in my Kolb, but in other planes, & assumed they would treat me no
differently in the Kolb.
Oh well.
Jim
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Jim:
They treated me fine, until closing time at 1700 Saturday. Then they kicked
me out the door and told me I was not allowed to camp overnight on the
airport. Had nothing to do with the size, speed, cost, or looks of my
airplane.
This type attitude by an airport manager always bothers me. I feel the type
of grass roots aviation I enjoy is at stake when one is not welcome to camp
out with your airplane.
There are times when schelduled commercial flights land, remain overnight,
or land and take right off again. TSA says we can not remain behind the
fence overnight. I understand this, after I was refused permission to RON
at Rock Springs, WY, for that reason.
However, last year I met John Bickham and John Williamson at Muscle Shoals,
AL. We slept on the tarmac with our airplanes while the scheduled
commercial flights landed, taxiied right past us to the terminal.
Difference in individual attitudes in different geographical locations.
Conway, AR, was not friendly, when Steven Green and I met there in May 2007
to fly to MV. However, a few miles down the road, Russellville, AR, the FBO
gave us a car and the FBO for the night. We had topped off at Conway,
explained this to the elderly gentleman, but he was happy to try and make
two guys comfortable for the night. Perhaps he too had enjoyed flying the
way Steven and I were enjoying it.
john h
mkIII
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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russ(at)rkiphoto.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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Sleeping habits can occasionally be an advantage, if you snore loudly
enough. Ask me sometime about the glacial esker in the Russian lakes
in AK sometime. Or maybe, no, don't!
Do not archive
On Aug 27, 2008, at 4:49 PM, Jim wrote:
[quote]
John, maybe they had heard about your Sleeping habits? : )Ive not
landed there in my Kolb, but in other planes, & assumed they would
treat me no differently in the Kolb.
Oh well.
Jim
Do not archive
---
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Cross Country Dreams |
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| cristalclear13 wrote: |
Makes sense. Better start saving up my cents. |
Actually, even at $1.50 to $2 more per gallon for avgas, you're not looking at too huge of an increase in fuel cost. i.e. if you burn 4gph, you're only down about $8 hour more worst case scenario of $2. The delta is typically more like 1.50 but $8/hour is still a total steal for being able to fly through the air.
I also agree with John, getting gas locally pays for itself in the long run by helping to keep the airports, FBO's and services around.
They're actually hurting pretty bad these days because the high cost of 100LL has resulted in a fair bit of demand destruction. I keep getting my hangar rent raised because gas sales, among other things, have gone down so much at my airport.
I normally tote auto gas in for engine-health reasons, so I'm not much help. but I definitely still buy gas at the self-serve if I'm low even at the higher costs....
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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cristalclear13
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Cross Country Dreams |
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| lucien wrote: |
Actually, even at $1.50 to $2 more per gallon for avgas, you're not looking at too huge of an increase in fuel cost. i.e. if you burn 4gph, you're only down about $8 hour more worst case scenario of $2. The delta is typically more like 1.50 but $8/hour is still a total steal for being able to fly through the air.
I also agree with John, getting gas locally pays for itself in the long run by helping to keep the airports, FBO's and services around.
LS |
On a 10 hour trip that would add up to $80 one way, $160 round trip. I don't know about you rich retired folks, but that's a lot of money to me. I'm one of those type of people who would LIKE to keep the local grocery store open by giving them my business but who has to shop at Walmart because the difference in my total grocery bill would really hurt.
But I also understand what John is saying about having to put gas in the courtesy car and also keeping FBOs in business.
It would also save time on such a long trip to just fill up at the airport. So I'd have to weigh out all those things.
Why can one airport (like the very small airport of Homerville) offer gas at the same price as auto gas (3 something) and another airport have to charge 5-6? I would think the larger airports could charge even less since they more than likely get more business.
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_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009 |
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WillUribe(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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Greetings,
Some of my ultralight flying buddies buy their fuel at the gas station and that is OK. My home airport is privately owned and is supported in part by fuel sales. Every time I fuel up I buy from the airport pump after all I am using his runway. And most important I know the fuel is good and has none of government mandated additive junk they put in car gas.
Then there are those day I have to land at a truck stop for fuel
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Cross Country Dreams |
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| cristalclear13 wrote: |
On a 10 hour trip that would add up to $80 one way, $160 round trip. I don't know about you rich retired folks, but that's a lot of money to me. I'm one of those type of people who would LIKE to keep the local grocery store open by giving them my business but who has to shop at Walmart because the difference in my total grocery bill would really hurt.
|
I'm neither rich nor retired, but even so $80 to $160 is a fairly small percentage of the overall cost of flying 10 hours. How much did you pay for your plane and how much is the gross cost to fly it per hour?
If you do the math, considering everything - purchase price, maintenance, overhaul cost, fixed costs, etc., $160 will actually be a pretty small figure in it all...
Only if you fly a very inexpensive plane will something like that make a huge difference....
| Quote: |
But I also understand what John is saying about having to put gas in the courtesy car and also keeping FBOs in business.
It would also save time on such a long trip to just fill up at the airport. So I'd have to weigh out all those things.
Why can one airport (like the very small airport of Homerville) offer gas at the same price as auto gas (3 something) and another airport have to charge 5-6? I would think the larger airports could charge even less since they more than likely get more business. |
Like John, I also don't whine (in public  ) about the cost of gas; I consider the extra expense in avgas when I do need to fuel up at an airport an investment in the airports I fly to and the personnel that keep them going.
But overall, it's not that much extra considering all the other costs, like I said.
As for the prices, it's pretty much a what-the-market-will-bear type of thing. Albuquerque Intl., for example, charges at least $1 more for 100LL than most other airports in this area, presumeably simply because they can sell it to the bigger iron there for that price. The smaller airports can't sell it for that much so they have to be in line with the local competitors.....
LS
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_________________
LS
Titan II SS |
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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The circumstances vary widely for our category. With me, the cost of
gas is about all there is to it.
I have perhaps about $13,000 in my low time MkIII with a very low
time 4 stroke on it.
I can't count the many hours of building and creating and tuning
because I am retired and don't
consider it "work" 
Cost of hangar and airstrip: near zero (tenant farmer pays most taxes
for it)
Free A&P maintenance
Oil change every three years whether it needs it or not.
~ 2.5 gal/hr gas (it will burn just about anything that pours)
no insurance. If I total it I'll prorate the annual cost per year of
ownership.
I should be under $1000/year in a couple more years.
That leaves me resources for other pursuits in addition to flying.
BB
On 28, Aug 2008, at 9:43 AM, lucien wrote:
| Quote: |
cristalclear13 wrote:
> On a 10 hour trip that would add up to $80 one way, $160 round
> trip. I don't know about you rich retired folks, but that's a lot
> of money to me. I'm one of those type of people who would LIKE to
> keep the local grocery store open by giving them my business but
> who has to shop at Walmart because the difference in my total
> grocery bill would really hurt.
>
I'm neither rich nor retired, but even so $80 to $160 is a fairly
small percentage of the overall cost of flying 10 hours. How much
did you pay for your plane and how much is the gross cost to fly it
per hour?
If you do the math, considering everything - purchase price,
maintenance, overhaul cost, fixed costs, etc., $160 will actually
be a pretty small figure in it all...
Only if you fly a very inexpensive plane will something like that
make a huge difference....
>
> But I also understand what John is saying about having to put gas
> in the courtesy car and also keeping FBOs in business.
> It would also save time on such a long trip to just fill up at the
> airport. So I'd have to weigh out all those things.
>
> Why can one airport (like the very small airport of Homerville)
> offer gas at the same price as auto gas (3 something) and another
> airport have to charge 5-6? I would think the larger airports
> could charge even less since they more than likely get more business.
Like John, I also don't whine (in public ) about the cost of gas;
I consider the extra expense in avgas when I do need to fuel up at
an airport an investment in the airports I fly to and the personnel
that keep them going.
But overall, it's not that much extra considering all the other
costs, like I said.
As for the prices, it's pretty much a what-the-market-will-bear
type of thing. Albuquerque Intl., for example, charges at least $1
more for 100LL than most other airports in this area, presumeably
simply because they can sell it to the bigger iron there for that
price. The smaller airports can't sell it for that much so they
have to be in line with the local competitors.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1179#201179
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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Robert
You have done well. I figure my full up cost was $14,000 but then I had the
redrive problem a few years ago and had to add $1,800 for a total engine
rebuild so I'm up to about $16,000 now. I used to fly GA aircraft for fun
burning 8-16 gallons an hour depending on the plane in our flying club. Now
I burn 4 gallons an hour and no matter what the cost it is still cheep.
I change my oil every 25 hours or more when traveling but when it looks
dirty the rest of the time. Sometimes with as little as 10 hours. A oil
change is 2.5 quarts without a filter change. I buy good oil at cheap places
and feel that it is not just a longevity issue but a safety issue.
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
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willuribe(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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Hi Cristal,
A few years ago I asked the airport owner why his mowgas was more expensive then the gas stations especially when their is no road tax associated with the fuel he buys ( He can't sell it to cars). He got very upset and told me he pays $30,000 a year for property tax plus the school tax, community collage tax and the water district tax although we don't get water from any water district.
He had to make the money some how to pay all those taxes and the up keep of the airport property. He also has to buy a special batch, with no juck, that is not found locally so he needs to buy a tanker load. In Texas there is no income tax so the property tax is a little higher then some other states. And we pay more school taxes because of all those RugRats that come across the border from Mexico each day for a free Gringo education. (And whose parents don't pay any kind of state tax) 
--
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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A fellow miser... warms my heart.
For oil I blend a mongrel mixture of valvoline - 3 qts 20-50 with1
gt 5-30 durablend semi-synthetic.
-for mysterious reasons perhaps not based on reality but it is an
extremely hardy fluid.
I don't put on a lot of time yearly with my kind of flying and at the
temps I operate, moisture isn't an issue.
I change oil on my car at around 6K, give or take one.
What I always found goofy were the folks who traded in their car at
50K and changed the oil a lot.
For what? the next guy? har har
A few years back I bought a 64 Lincoln from a millionaire who hadn't
changed it since new.
I put several K on it with no problems. That 430 could guzzle a lot
of $.25/gal gas.
Can't figure why we is running low on crude?
BB
do not archive
On 28, Aug 2008, at 1:02 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
[quote]
<NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Robert
You have done well. I figure my full up cost was $14,000 but then I
had the redrive problem a few years ago and had to add $1,800 for a
total engine rebuild so I'm up to about $16,000 now. I used to fly
GA aircraft for fun burning 8-16 gallons an hour depending on the
plane in our flying club. Now I burn 4 gallons an hour and no
matter what the cost it is still cheep.
I change my oil every 25 hours or more when traveling but when it
looks dirty the rest of the time. Sometimes with as little as 10
hours. A oil change is 2.5 quarts without a filter change. I buy
good oil at cheap places and feel that it is not just a longevity
issue but a safety issue.
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
---
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cristalclear13
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia
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N111KX (Kip)
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 96
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Cross Country Dreams |
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Ahhh...the Wild West lives...
| WillUribe(at)aol.com wrote: | Greetings,
Some of my ultralight flying buddies buy their fuel at the gas station and that is OK. My home airport is privately owned and is supported in part by fuel sales. Every time I fuel up I buy from the airport pump after all I am using his runway. And most important I know the fuel is good and has none of government mandated additive junk they put in car gas.
Then there are those day I have to land at a truck stop for fuel
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. |
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_________________
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta |
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cristalclear13
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia
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N111KX (Kip)
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 96
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Cross Country Dreams |
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One factor in the big city is overhead. At the $5-6 price you may find a nice place with self flushing toilets, weather computers, big screen TV's, trained line personnel, new fuel trucks...ect. They have to attract the big wigs but they may add a dollar here and there also...
[/quote]
Why can one airport (like the very small airport of Homerville) offer gas at the same price as auto gas (3 something) and another airport have to charge 5-6? I would think the larger airports could charge even less since they more than likely get more business.[/quote]
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_________________
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta |
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WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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Hi Cristal,
Out here in the wild west the truck stops have what looks like dirt runways in the parking lot, that is what we use.
Regards,
Will Uribe
Click here: Mosquito ultralight
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>
WillUribe(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Then there are those days I have to land at a truck stop for fuel
|
Did you land in the parking lot!? I love the look of the guy in the background of the first picture...like "what in the world?!" [Laughing]
--------
Cristal Waters
Mark II Twinstar
do not archive
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
[quote][b]
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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Hey John,
If you remember... when you were flying your Ultraster on those long cross
countries, what kind of fuel consumption did you get? Do you recall what
the rpm/airspeed is for best range?
-Dana
--
The early bird catches the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the
cheese.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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> If you remember... when you were flying your Ultraster on those long
cross
| Quote: | countries, what kind of fuel consumption did you get? Do you recall what
the rpm/airspeed is for best range?
-Dana
|
Morning Dana:
I flew the Cuyuna ULII02, as well as Rotax 2 strokes, 5,800 rpm. To me,
this is where the engines and airplanes wanted to be, the sweet spot.
Only way to know what your engine is going to burn on a xc is fly at least a
one hour leg. Start with full tanks and top them off when you land at the
next airport.
Here's what they burned at cruise, which is much different from fuel burn
flying around the patch:
ULII02 - 3.5 to 3.75 gph
447 - Same
582 - 5 to 5.5 gph
912 - 4 gph
912uls 5 gph
I have been more interested in cruise speed than range. Also where the
engines and aircraft feel best.
IIRC the US cruised at 65 mph.
FS about the same.
MKIII 80 to 85 mph depending on how I am loaded.
Also remember, these figures are based on a fully loaded airplane, not
empty.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: Cross Country Dreams |
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Hi John,
The GPH sounds about right for the ULII02... though I don't think I'm
getting anywhere near 65mph at 5800 rpm. Range is a concern to me because
here in New England, airports with fuel (and even landable fields!) are a
considerable distance apart. XC flying requires a study of Google Earth,
and non direct routes to avoid flying over too much unlandable forest.
-Dana
At 09:16 AM 8/29/2008, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: | I flew the Cuyuna ULII02, as well as Rotax 2 strokes, 5,800 rpm. To me,
this is where the engines and airplanes wanted to be, the sweet spot.
Only way to know what your engine is going to burn on a xc is fly at least
a one hour leg. Start with full tanks and top them off when you land at
the next airport.
Here's what they burned at cruise, which is much different from fuel burn
flying around the patch:
ULII02 - 3.5 to 3.75 gph
447 - Same
582 - 5 to 5.5 gph
912 - 4 gph
912uls 5 gph
I have been more interested in cruise speed than range. Also where the
engines and aircraft feel best.
IIRC the US cruised at 65 mph.
FS about the same.
MKIII 80 to 85 mph depending on how I am loaded.
Also remember, these figures are based on a fully loaded airplane, not empty.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
|
--
The most important and least understood aspect of life in America is
stupidity.
-- F.Zappa
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cristalclear13
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Cross Country Dreams |
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| cristalclear13 wrote: | Well, I appreciate everyone's input and advice. I am leaving now for my long drive to Carmi...through Atlanta and Nashville traffic. I know I'll be sitting there wishing I was flying but perhaps next time...when it's cooler and when there aren't hoards of tropical storms headed our way.
But all that driving will give me time to daydream about planning my first "shorter" long cross country in my Kolb...perhaps toward the Atlantic beaches...Jekyll Island...Fernandina...Cumberland Island. |
One nice thing about flying our type of planes is that what is a short hop in the big iron can be a pretty decent xcountry trip in ours.
Back in TX, for example, I flew my FS II from my home airport to a flyin in New Braunfels, TX, about a 20 to 30NM trip IIRC. But it seemed like the 60+ milers I used to do in the GA planes I flew back in my former life as a GA pilot.
Very enjoyable, just my simple rag/tube Kolb and the 503 screamer on top taking me all the way over to another airport.... I think it was about 1/2 hour each way, can't remember offhand, but plenty of time to enjoy the slow change of scenery.
So it's still quite a fun time even on short trips.
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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