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CT MKIII crash
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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Looks like the MKIII crash last month in CT (prelimnary report at 

http://tinyurl.com/4cv3pq ) may have been caused by water in the fuel, at 

least the investigator said there was water in the fuel line.  AFAIK the 

plane had no gascolator, no means to inspect or drain out water.



Pilot is home, leg healing nicely but still needing major reconstruction of 

the shattered ankle.  Passenger should be home soon, but with a long period 

of taking it easy as the cracked (3 places) pelvis heals.  Both are looking 

forward to flying again though the passenger says he'll stick to his 

gyrocopter!



-Dana

--

  Lottery: a tax on the mathematically challenged.

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Dana, Looks like we should all have some sort of a gascolator built into our aircraft  especially now that most of us are not counting micro-ounces to make 254lbs . Although I will admit I never had that problem till Norm and I did ,but I was a nut about the fuel quality ,but that is not a luxury we always have so a possibly wet can of fuel sent through a gascolater then a fresh fuel line filter which you carry onboard would be far supior to no fuel in the morn. It was after all Water and Bugs that killed Norm  and left me disabled Firefly pilot to be!   Chris  



 

 ---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

A gascolator is a VERY good idea in any airplane, even an ultralight.  In almost all water contamination cases, the gascolator will hold any water that may have gotten into your fuel until you land, and you will be able to catch it before it causes an engine failure.  It would take a huge amount of water in the fuel to fill up a standard gascolator, and be sent on to the carbs.   When I drain the gascolator, I can easily detect even the smallest amount of water, which would make me investigate where the water came from before I flew anymore...   With a gascolator, water is just never going to make it into your carbs unless you are pouring large amounts of water into your tanks, in which case nothing will save you....



I have been been advising people to put in aircraft quality fuel components and fuel systems of accepted aircraft design in their Kolbs for a while now on this list.  The weight gain is negligible for the extra safety and reliability it provides.  There are always a few people here that are just to good to take advice from someone that is not popular here on this list,  and that kind of grade school mentality is what gets people hurt.  Aviation does not care who you or who your fiends are, if you make mistakes, you will likely get hurt or die.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Hi Chris D:

  

 I have encountered the same problem with my Kolbs over the  years.  If I make a concerted effort to check the float bowls at least once  a month, I have no problem.  All it takes is a small drop of water to get  the corrosion started in the "pot metal" float bowls.  Then a little speck  of trash gets over the main jet well fence, lodges in the main jet, and its  forced landing time.

  

 I have a home made gascolator that works well.  If I  drain fuel each day I fly, I do not have a water problem.

  

 The two engine failures I experienced in the past 2,500+  912 hours was caused by fuel contamination.  Both times getting fuel from a  reliable source, I thought.

  

 Take care,

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    It was after all Water and Bugs that    killed Norm  and left me disabled Firefly pilot to be!   Chris    

         



   

    



[b]

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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Mike B:

  

 Haven't found it necessary to use aircraft quality fuel  components and fuel systems designed for aircraft.  What I do use is cheap,  reliable, and has been proven over many thousands of hours.

  

 The two engine failures I experienced be cause of fuel  contamination could have been prevented very easily.  However, due to pilot  error, I did not check the fuel prior to takeoff in both cases.  These  forced landings were my fault.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    I have been been advising people to put in    aircraft quality fuel components and fuel systems of accepted aircraft design    in their Kolbs for a while now on this list.  The weight gain is    negligible for the extra safety and reliability it provides.  There are    always a few people here that are just to good to take advice from someone    that is not popular here on this list,  and that kind of grade school    mentality is what gets people hurt.  Aviation does not care who you or    who your fiends are, if you make mistakes, you will likely get hurt or    die.



Mike

 

[b]

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

At 05:45 PM 10/13/2008, chris davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dana, Looks like we should all have some sort of a gascolator built into 

our aircraft  especially now that most of us are not counting micro-ounces 

to make 254lbs...


	


Some may recall that I started a thread a year or so ago about trying to 

find a suitable gascolator.  Modern aircraft units are too heavy (I'm one 

of the ounce counters) and expensive and the cheap tractor ones are too, 

well, cheap, and have no drain provision without removing the bowl.  What I 

really want is the clear glass tube type with drain like I had on my 

T-Craft, but nobody seems to make such a thing any more.



I settled for a loop of clear fuel line (sorry John) at the lowest point in 

combination with the clear glass inline filter.  No drain provision, but I 

can see if there's anything there... so far nothing.  I also always do a 

full power runup and wait 'til the EGT stabilizes before the first flight 

of every day and after each refueling.



But I'm still looking for that perfect gascolator.



-Dana

--

  Help Wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

At 04:45 PM 10/13/08 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



A gascolator is a VERY good idea in any airplane, even an ultralight.  

.......................
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

The weight gain is negligible for the extra safety and reliability it 
	


provides. There are always a few people here that are just to good to take 

advice from someone that is not popular here on this list,  and that kind of 

grade school mentality is what gets people hurt.  Aviation does not care who 

you or who your fiends are, if you make mistakes, you will likely get hurt 

or die.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Mike,



If one does not draw fuel from the bottom of the tank and follows good 

refueling practices, there is no need for a gascolator on a FireFly.  Weight 

is always a problem with an ultralight.  



Why not just state your point and leave off the flogging of individuals who 

you know are not going to follow your advice.  Your information is not 

unpopular but delivery is some what rough. I am sure grade school people 

appreciate your humor and will accept all blame for ill advice.  All of us 

make mistakes all the time.  For many of us that is how we learn.  

Fortunately I am still around and continue to make mistakes.  The last one 

is probably in the responding to this email.



Please lighten up be kind to yourself.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Dana:

  

 I put a "T" in the bottom of my fuel line loop.   Dropped another line off the bottom.  Then installed a $3.00 Briggs and  Stratton plastic fuel shut off valve.  Works great.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    I settled for a loop of clear fuel line    (sorry John) at the lowest point in 

combination with the clear glass    inline filter.  No drain provision, but I 

can see if there's anything    there... so far nothing.  

-Dana



 

[b]

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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Jack H:

  

 I agree with you 100%, as far as your Fire Fly is  concerned.

  

 For all other aircraft, especially the ones I fly, I want  a gascolator.

  

 I draw fuel from the lowest point of my fuel tank.   The reason, so I can get every drop out of there if necessary.

  

 I also use clean fuel, and the homemade gascolator and  filter should take care of what I miss, unless I duplicate my two serious  fueling mistakes I mentioned in an earlier message.  As long as I take a  fuel sample after fueling, I will know if it is good to go or not.

  

 A fuel sample should be taken in a clear glass jar.   That is the way I was taught in Army Rotary Wing Flight Training 40 years  ago.  It still works well today.

  

 Take care,

  

 john h

 mklIII

 [quote]    If one does not draw fuel from the bottom    of the tank and follows good 

refueling practices, there is no need for a    gascolator on a FireFly.  Weight 

is always a problem with an    ultralight.  

 

Jack B. Hart    FF004

 

[b]

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Dana/All



Great Plains Aircraft sells a gascolator that is light has a drain port and 

is $29.95 or was a few years ago. I purchased a Curtis fuel quick drain 

valve for mine. The gascolator is located at the low point of the fuel 

system with the drain valve sticking out the side of the fuselage cage. I 

sump my fuel system before each flight of the day and after each fueling.



There are a number of things like this that are normal for GA aircraft. They 

have learned the value of gascolators, boost pumps, etc that greatly 

increase safety. Nothing smart on my part just things that I got used to 

having in a aircraft I fly.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

http://www.greatplainsas.com/pg28f.html

Great Plains Gascolator  

This Gascolator is a high quality, low cost fuel filter and water strainer. It should be installed at a low point in the fuel system, below the fuel tank to trap any water that may accumulate so it can be drained. The gascolator has a 10 micron fuel filterand an 1/8" pipe thread outlet for a quick fuel drain valve (not included). If you are using a fuel pump, the pump should be installed between the carb and the gascolator. 



Price . . . $29.95. 

Curtis Quick Drain Valve for use on Gascolator . . . $11.75.

olendorf

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

I know I'm going to get beat up for this one.



Why do you have to put the gascolator at the lowest point in the system?  I bought a gascolator with a plastic bowl designed for JetSkis and I was going to put it right behind my seat so I could actually see it and empty it from time to time.  Putting it at the lowest point would probably mean that it would never get looked at regularly.  Any water still has to pass through the gascolator no matter where it is.



OK, shoot. Tell me how I'm wrong.

_________________
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

At 10:42 AM 10/14/08 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I know I'm going to get beat up for this one.



Why do you have to put the gascolator at the lowest point in the system?  I 

bought a gascolator with a plastic bowl designed for JetSkis and I was going 
	


to put it right behind my seat so I could actually see it and empty it from 

time to time.  Putting it at the lowest point would probably mean that it 

would never get looked at regularly.  Any water still has to pass through 

the gascolator no matter where it is.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Scott,



You may want to consider water freezing.  It is best if it freezes in the 

colator rather that some place in the fuel 

line.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

At 01:42 PM 10/14/2008, olendorf wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Why do you have to put the gascolator at the lowest point in the 

system?  I bought a gascolator with a plastic bowl designed for JetSkis 

and I was going to put it right behind my seat so I could actually see it 

and empty it from time to time.  Putting it at the lowest point would 

probably mean that it would never get looked at regularly.  Any water 

still has to pass through the gascolator no matter where it is.



OK, shoot. Tell me how I'm wrong.


	


Because, since water is heavier, it will naturally drain to the lowest 

point in the system, where it can be drained off via the gascolator.



-Dana

--

  Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 

210lb. rapists.

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Scott



Its aircraft standard practice to put it in the lowest point. I believe 

water in a system will separate and settle to the lowest point in a fuel 

system over time. When you sump the system with a quick drain you will get 

any water out of the system. This is your first warning that water is in 

your fuel and may need to be drained further. If you don't have your 

gascolator/quick drain at the low point you will not get any water out till 

after the water has been pumped to it. I also believe that some water might 

get through a gascolator if the fuel flow is high or the gascolator over 

fills with water. Don't worry so much about access to the gascolator but do 

make the quick drain accessible.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

Now I am confused.



On my plane the fuel pickups are on the bottom of the tanks and the fuel is pulled to the top of the tanks.



There is no way to put the gascolator at the bottom of my fuel system unless I install fuel pickups in the bottom of my tanks.



With my current setup would my plane even benefit from having one?

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

Here is the Aircraft Spruce  gascolator I use.  It is cheap, 70 bucks, works very well, has a built in screen and weighs maybe 8 ounces.  It is light enough to use even on a Firefly.   At a weight of 254 pounds, 8 ounces just isn't going to hurt anything even on a firefly.   Dont forget to buy the extra gasket if you plan tu use auto gas, the included gasket is not compatible....



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/acsgascolator.php



Even stock Mark III fuel tanks do not drain from the bottom, they are a similar setup to the fireflys tank, but you should still have a gascolator.   Just because you draw gas from the top of your take through a tube is does not mean you do not need a gascolator.  Any fuel system on an airplane should have one.  Its not just for water, but any larger garbage will be blocked by the screen so that you can drain it out and see it.  My guess is that the MK III in the accident had tanks that drew from the top like all stock Kolb MK III's  do.... And yes even though he was drawing from the top he still really needed a gascolator.   Its myths like this that get spread around by people that don't know any better are things that can get people hurt...  



John H.  



I will explain my statement about aircraft quality fuel parts a bit more, I do not mean certified aviation fuel parts, or even fuel components that have been especially built for aircraft.  Many marine and auto lines and filters are of equal or better quality than some aircraft components.  I mean to use top quality components that would be equal to or better aircraft grade - which I am sure you have in your MK III.  



What I would most definitely NOT USE is that cheap, easily cut, easily melted semi clear fuel line that goes bad quickly and that is found in so many ultralights.   Just because this substandard fuel line has found its way into the ultralight culture does not mean that it is a good idea.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

YES.....cheap insurance.....as they say shit happens and it is a long way 

down and time to think about what you could or should have done to prevent 

it.



--------------------------------------------------

From: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: 2008-10-14 15:27

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: CT MKIII crash



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Now I am confused.



 On my plane the fuel pickups are on the bottom of the tanks and the fuel 

 is pulled to the top of the tanks.



 There is no way to put the gascolator at the bottom of my fuel system 

 unless I install fuel pickups in the bottom of my tanks.



 With my current setup would my plane even benefit from having one?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8777#208777

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Mike



You say stock tanks don't drain from the bottom. Are you sure? My stock Kolb 

5 gallon tanks drain from the bottom. I added a finger strainer/shutoff 

valve to the stock setup when I installed my stock bottom drains to my stock 

tanks per Kolb instructions. Has this changed?



I don't know for sure that a gascolator will work as designed with the top 

draw system but it seems it would help. I guess this is another argument for 

the standard practice of bottom drain fuel tanks. Has anyone that has had a 

bottom drain installed properly ever had a leak? I still don't fully 

understand why one would use the top draw system.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

At 04:00 PM 10/14/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  You say stock tanks don't drain from the bottom. Are you sure? My stock 

Kolb 5 gallon tanks drain from the bottom. I added a finger 

strainer/shutoff valve to the stock setup when I installed my stock bottom 

drains to my stock tanks per Kolb instructions. Has this changed?



I don't know for sure that a gascolator will work as designed with the top 

draw system but it seems it would help. I guess this is another argument 

for the standard practice of bottom drain fuel tanks. Has anyone that has 

had a bottom drain installed properly ever had a leak? I still don't fully 

understand why one would use the top draw system.


	


The accident aircraft drew fuel through the top of the tanks and had no 

gascolator.



With top draw, the gascolator will catch water as it flows through the 

gascolator (which is the most important thing) but it won't pick up water 

that settles in the bottom of the tank(s) while the aircraft is sitting.



-Dana



--

  I don't trust a government I can't shoot back at.

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