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Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybo

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Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybo

On Wed, December 31, 2008 10:20 am, Bob Brennan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Paul,



 I am a taildragger driver and much prefer it to the tricycle gear airplanes

 I have trained on,


	


Please elaborate. Your reason for choice would interest us all.



 	  Quote: 	
		   but I have to question your statement below in defense of

 taildraggers - "more prop clearance". I know it is possible to take off with

 the tail still on the ground, and the favored landing is a "3-pointer", but

 I think most taildraggers will raise the tail asap on takeoff, for me that's

 usually less than 2 seconds into the roll. So for most of my takeoff roll,

 most of the time, it is rolling the same as a tricycle gear in terms of prop

 clearance.


	


How about landing in the rough? You certainly can get more prop clearance. The same

goes for taxiing. I think that most of the rolling on the ground is other than the

take-off roll. When you are trying to get to the place you want to do your take-off,

you can taxi with more prop clearance, to keep the prop out of the grass and gravel.

When you pickup gravel nicks in your prop it is right at the beginning of the takeoff

roll. Once you're moving and the tail starts to come up, you're not picking up as much

gravel. The tail dragger has an advantage at the beginning of the takeoff roll that

can't be achieved with a tricycle gear airplane. You can also delay raising the tail

until the main gear starts to lift off, thereby maintaining propeller to ground

clearance. I do agree that extends the takeoff roll.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I can hear your response as "Ah, but you have the choice" and also recall

 soft-field training in a tricycle with the yoke in my lap to get the

 nosewheel out of the grass/mud asap. So maybe a better point would be that

 taildraggers always offer soft-field short-field performance? Also -

 wouldn't rolling with the tail down in a taildragger be somewhat

 counterproductive due to the large increase in drag due to the high

 angle-of-attack and not travelling inline with the thrust vector?


	


Agreed. However, as you say, you have the option and you certainly can keep the prop

up out of the weeds and from picking up gravel at the beginning of the roll.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

>From a taildragger-lover, on which lady-friends might agree - enquiring

 minds want to know...


	


I think there are a lot more options for fun with the small tail dragger. I've decided

that after owning a Cherokee 160 and a Turbo Arrow for many years. That type of flying

is more for commuting than for exploring. I do that in a Boeing, nowadays and have

changed my purpose for an airplane.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybo

I gotta get my two cents worth in here...when I flew my Kitfox  

taildragger to New York to visit the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, and  

asked if I could land there, they asked me if it was a taildragger  

and I told them yes it was, and they said come on in. They had an  

incident with a nosegear plane and their insurance company said no  

more nose gears, thank you. Besides, a nose gear plane landing at a  

field where conventional gear WWI planes are flying? I don't think  

so, Al....: )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 31, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <paul(at)eucleides.com>



 On Wed, December 31, 2008 10:20 am, Bob Brennan wrote:

> 

> <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

>

> Paul,

>

> I am a taildragger driver and much prefer it to the tricycle gear  

> airplanes

> I have trained on,



 Please elaborate. Your reason for choice would interest us all.



> but I have to question your statement below in defense of

> taildraggers - "more prop clearance". I know it is possible to  

> take off with

> the tail still on the ground, and the favored landing is a "3- 

> pointer", but

> I think most taildraggers will raise the tail asap on takeoff, for  

> me that's

> usually less than 2 seconds into the roll. So for most of my  

> takeoff roll,

> most of the time, it is rolling the same as a tricycle gear in  

> terms of prop

> clearance.



 How about landing in the rough? You certainly can get more prop  

 clearance. The same

 goes for taxiing. I think that most of the rolling on the ground is  

 other than the

 take-off roll. When you are trying to get to the place you want to  

 do your take-off,

 you can taxi with more prop clearance, to keep the prop out of the  

 grass and gravel.

 When you pickup gravel nicks in your prop it is right at the  

 beginning of the takeoff

 roll. Once you're moving and the tail starts to come up, you're not  

 picking up as much

 gravel. The tail dragger has an advantage at the beginning of the  

 takeoff roll that

 can't be achieved with a tricycle gear airplane. You can also delay  

 raising the tail

 until the main gear starts to lift off, thereby maintaining  

 propeller to ground

 clearance. I do agree that extends the takeoff roll.



> I can hear your response as "Ah, but you have the choice" and also  

> recall

> soft-field training in a tricycle with the yoke in my lap to get the

> nosewheel out of the grass/mud asap. So maybe a better point would  

> be that

> taildraggers always offer soft-field short-field performance? Also -

> wouldn't rolling with the tail down in a taildragger be somewhat

> counterproductive due to the large increase in drag due to the high

> angle-of-attack and not travelling inline with the thrust vector?



 Agreed. However, as you say, you have the option and you certainly  

 can keep the prop

 up out of the weeds and from picking up gravel at the beginning of  

 the roll.

>

>> From a taildragger-lover, on which lady-friends might agree -  

>> enquiring

> minds want to know...



 I think there are a lot more options for fun with the small tail  

 dragger. I've decided

 that after owning a Cherokee 160 and a Turbo Arrow for many years.  

 That type of flying

 is more for commuting than for exploring. I do that in a Boeing,  

 nowadays and have

 changed my purpose for an airplane.



 -- 

 Paul A. Franz

 Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 Bellevue WA

 425.241.1618 Cell

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybo

Paul Franz says:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think there are a lot more options for fun with the small tail dragger. 

 I've decided

 that after owning a Cherokee 160 and a Turbo Arrow for many years. That 

 type of flying

 is more for commuting than for exploring. I do that in a Boeing, nowadays 

 and have

 changed my purpose for an airplane.


	


I couldn't agree more with this statement.



It reminds me of the time four Kitfoxes were on the way to the annual 

informal Dichondra Field fly-in.  I was preparing to depart for our assemble 

point when an RV-4 pilot asked me if I was going to the fly-in and asked to 

tag along as he didn't know where it was - a commercial dichondra farm 

somewhere in California's central valley.  Sure why not.  After hooking up 

with the others at Rancho Murietta it was off.  Once airborn, however, the 

Kitfoxes decided to follow the river at tree top level and the poor RV guy 

orbited overhead with nothing else to do but watch us having our type of 

fun.



This obviously has nothing to do with tailwheel vs. nose wheel, but it does 

describe pretty well that there are purposes for the various types of 

aircraft.  I sometimes wonder why my Lancair friend enjoys his flying so 

much as all he can see at altitude is his panel and a gray haze below him as 

he flys at his 250 kts.  Maybe that is why he wanted a fast airplane, 

because in his experience flying is pretty boring, but owning a screamer is 

big-time ego food.



I guess there is no bad reason for choosing one configuration over another 

whether it be prop clearance, the airplanes intended use, high insurance 

premiums or fear of cross winds.  It just has to be a personal choice we 

make and then live with.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

Building

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybo

You're asking an old(er) pilot to elaborate!? Here come the stories... (as I

type this I see Lynn has already added one of his own<g>)



How do I prefer thee taildragger? Let me count the ways... 



1. I keep my KF2 on a trailer in my barn and fly from a grass field (8N7)

about 5 miles away. I am the only plane "based" there, although others

visit, and the only open runway is a bit rough to say the least. Taxiing can

be bone-jarring but since the weight is off my wheels within seconds and I

am off the ground within 300 ft it's not bad at all. I couldn't imagine

bouncing along for 1000ft in a C-172, although I have done just that.



2. As my recent BFR I did a couple of hours type-training in a 172, which

included several (6) short-field grass strip visits where I got to practice

full throttle with brakes, yoke in your gut (sucked in), 40* flaps,

tight-rope balancing on the mains to "keep the weight off the nosewheel",

and then once off flying the remaining runway "in ground effect". And I'm

sorry, I've done ground effect in Cherokees and Warriors, and a Skyhawk does

not do ground effect with those high wings. All the while I was thinking

"can't wait to visit here in my Kitfox".



3. I took a ladyfriend from 8N7 to the mile-long paved runway where I fly

the 172 for a $100 ($5 in a KF, plus the price of the burger) hamburger and

was even impressed myself at how smooth the landing was and how fast we got

off the pavement. The only disadvantage was the long taxi times given how

little runway I used. The attention from other pilots during the taxi made

it worthwhile however. Pretty lady, pretty airplane, life is good sometimes.



4. I have made a one-way(slight slope) runway behind my house that is only

400ft of babies-butt smooth grass but has 100ft overrun (neighbor) on one

end and 50ft on the other. I still don't feel confident enough yet to try it

but 8N7 has white painted tires every 200ft so I can gauge my takeoffs and

landings accurately for practice. Kids - don't try this at home, or in a

tricycle gear.



5. The "oleo strut" on rentals/trainers seems to be the thing that is always

failing or about to fail, with 3 Skyhawks to choose from it pays to know

which has had it's front wheel repaired/replaced most recently. Not a

problem I have to worry about with my KF2. BTW I see a lot of complaints

about failed tail leafsprings on this list, in the UK it was mandatory to

mount a Maule tailwheel assembly as the Denney one was considered

unsuitable. I have never had a problem.



I could go on, but that's enough for now. And please note - these are my

personal preferences according to my personal circumstances, not

who's-is-bigger-or-better.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybo

I had the same experience at Old Rhinebeck just a few months ago, although I

hadn't flown in and was asking if I could for next year. Taildraggers only,

like the old sign on the treehouse "no girls allowed". And there's no

beating the feeling of the crowds thinking you're part of the show - I'll

bet you slipped it in right in front of the stands didn't you Lynn?



Do not archive

Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybo

Nah, I got there at about 8 am...no crowd (damn!)...and just flew in  

from the north end, following the slight bend in the runway, missed  

the big flat rock that sticks up about, what, 3 inches?, and taxied  

to the far end....no problem. I had to get out of there before 10 am  

or stay until after 5 pm, so I headed back to Kingston, across the  

river, and drove back later for the show.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 31, 2008, at 4:02 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 I had the same experience at Old Rhinebeck just a few months ago,  

 although I

 hadn't flown in and was asking if I could for next year.  

 Taildraggers only,

 like the old sign on the treehouse "no girls allowed". And there's no

 beating the feeling of the crowds thinking you're part of the show  

 - I'll

 bet you slipped it in right in front of the stands didn't you Lynn?



 Do not archive

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa



 --

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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