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psm(at)att.net
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 Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Warning. I was very emotional in my dealings with the Heintz
brothers, Sebastian and especially Matthew. That means this report
might be all a bunch of imagined issues and nonsense based on my
heated condition.
First let me report the good news. I didn't kill either one of the
boys - I didn't even hit either of them. (I apologize if those seem
like redundant statements, but if I did hit one of them the blow
would probably be fatal thanks to my years studying Hap Ki Do.)
Second let me report the background. At 12:00 Matthew started
talking in tent 11 about the situation with the Zodiac XL. Sebastian
was also there and had a few comments, but it was mostly
Matthew. After the meeting I walked back to the Zenith display
(which, oddly enough, didn't include an XL) with both boys and tried
to hammer my simple point home. In the end, I think it was all
wasted breath on my part, but I am not sure. Perhaps in time they
will come around and do the simple things I demanded.
Now for the good stuff. (Remember, this is my heated memory of an
even more heated discussion. So take it with a grain of salt.) It
seems like Matthew is the guy in charge of handling this
situation. He explained he is now running Zenair where all of the
development is done while Sebastian is handling ZAC which merely
produces kits. Matthew doesn't think the NTSB has any standing in
this mess. He said they didn't have any proof to convince him that
their decision was the right one at least 5 times in the tent
session. He has hired a couple of engineering firms to do some
studies of the design and he gives them complete credence while
considering the NTSB mostly worthless. The good news is he thinks
the highly paid engineers will be finished with their work and submit
their findings within 2 weeks. He said he will base his further
actions on those findings.
My position was that the NTSB ruling was authoritative and needed to
be respected. Since the NTSB screamed we need aileron mass balancing
we need aileron mass balancing. I feel even more strongly that we
need an engineering change for the stick sensitivity problem
identified in the NTSB report. It seems to me this problem makes it
more likely that a panicked pilot will pull the wings off since it
gets progressively easier to do as the load increases. I told him
and several of the FAA folks that I can't imagine any reason why this
problem should not be corrected.
My point about the changes is that only the Heintz clan and their
companies can issue an authoritative engineering change. Only their
companies (and their father) have the expertise and knowledge of the
design history to make a reasonable determination that the new
changes won't cause unexpected problems in the remainder of the
design. I also said he didn't need to keep covering his rear end
regarding the question of the real need for these changes. The NTSB
has already taken the heat for demanding these changes for the whole
fleet, while Matthew made it clear his whole effort will only
consider the current drawings and not all the changes and variations
the home builders have introduced. Matthew can release the changes
with a caveat that he doesn't think they will help but at least they
won't hurt anything. This is the normal way Zenith approves of
design changes submitted for review by builders.
My general impression is that it will take a long time for Matthew
the come around and issue the needed design changes. I expect my
plane to be grounded (by me) for a long time. The central issue is
Matthew's decision process, and he doesn't seem to see it my way. I
will continue to apply as much pressure on him as I can, even thought
I think it is wasted effort. I simply have no reasonable alternative.
Paul
XL grounded
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hills(at)sunflower.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Paul:
YOU can't imagine any reason why this problem should not be corrected?
Really?
How about the fact that any admission by Mathew Heintz that a design flaw
exist in the XL would open them up to a law suit (or law suits)
Sadly, reason enough, I think....
Roger
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agibeaut
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Paul, I say this with all the respect in the world, but, was there any right answer to your questions that you would have accepted? You really need to calm down and ask yourself--"am I making things better, or worse?
Please don't scorch me, I mean this only in the most positive terms.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB.
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009y, 8:40 PM
Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Warning. I was very emotional in my dealings with the
Heintz brothers, Sebastian and especially Matthew.
That means this report might be all a bunch of imagined
issues and nonsense based on my heated condition.
First let me report the good news. I didn't kill
either one of the boys - I didn't even hit either of
them. (I apologize if those seem like redundant
statements, but if I did hit one of them the blow would
probably be fatal thanks to my years studying Hap Ki Do.)
Second let me report the background. At 12:00 Matthew
started talking in tent 11 about the situation with the
Zodiac XL. Sebastian was also there and had a few
comments, but it was mostly Matthew. After the meeting
I walked back to the Zenith display (which, oddly enough,
didn't include an XL) with both boys and tried to hammer my
simple point home. In the end, I think it was all
wasted breath on my part, but I am not sure. Perhaps
in time they will come around and do the simple things I
demanded.
Now for the good stuff. (Remember, this is my heated
memory of an even more heated discussion. So take it
with a grain of salt.) It seems like Matthew is the
guy in charge of handling this situation. He explained
he is now running Zenair where all of the development is
done while Sebastian is handling ZAC which merely produces
kits. Matthew doesn't think the NTSB has any standing
in this mess. He said they didn't have any proof to
convince him that their decision was the right one at least
5 times in the tent session. He has hired a couple of
engineering firms to do some studies of the design and he
gives them complete credence while considering the NTSB
mostly worthless. The good news is he thinks the
highly paid engineers will be finished with their work and
submit their findings within 2 weeks. He said he will
base his further actions on those findings.
My position was that the NTSB ruling was authoritative and
needed to be respected. Since the NTSB screamed we
need aileron mass balancing we need aileron mass
balancing. I feel even more strongly that we need an
engineering change for the stick sensitivity problem
identified in the NTSB report. It seems to me this
problem makes it more likely that a panicked pilot will pull
the wings off since it gets progressively easier to do as
the load increases. I told him and several of the FAA
folks that I can't imagine any reason why this problem
should not be corrected.
My point about the changes is that only the Heintz clan and
their companies can issue an authoritative engineering
change. Only their companies (and their father) have
the expertise and knowledge of the design history to make a
reasonable determination that the new changes won't cause
unexpected problems in the remainder of the design. I
also said he didn't need to keep covering his rear end
regarding the question of the real need for these
changes. The NTSB has already taken the heat for
demanding these changes for the whole fleet, while Matthew
made it clear his whole effort will only consider the
current drawings and not all the changes and variations the
home builders have introduced. Matthew can release the
changes with a caveat that he doesn't think they will help
but at least they won't hurt anything. This is the
normal way Zenith approves of design changes submitted for
review by builders.
My general impression is that it will take a long time for
Matthew the come around and issue the needed design
changes. I expect my plane to be grounded (by me) for
a long time. The central issue is Matthew's decision
process, and he doesn't seem to see it my way. I will
continue to apply as much pressure on him as I can, even
thought I think it is wasted effort. I simply have no
reasonable alternative.
Paul
XL grounded
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rpf(at)wi.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Paul, I couldn't disagree with you more. I happen to love the sensitive
control inputs and I hope the Heintz boys don't change it. Learn to fly the
plane properly and you will love it also.
Randy
601xl 280 hours and loving it.
---
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zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Paul,
Thanks for stepping up and putting up the heat with Zenith. Rest assure that you are not the only one who is frustrated with this mess, and it's good to have some information on where Zenith is standing at the moment.
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:40:44 PM
Subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>
Warning. I was very emotional in my dealings with the Heintz brothers, Sebastian and especially Matthew. That means this report might be all a bunch of imagined issues and nonsense based on my heated condition.
First let me report the good news. I didn't kill either one of the boys - I didn't even hit either of them. (I apologize if those seem like redundant statements, but if I did hit one of them the blow would probably be fatal thanks to my years studying Hap Ki Do.)
Second let me report the background. At 12:00 Matthew started talking in tent 11 about the situation with the Zodiac XL. Sebastian was also there and had a few comments, but it was mostly Matthew. After the meeting I walked back to the Zenith display (which, oddly enough, didn't include an XL) with both boys and tried to hammer my simple point home. In the end, I think it was all wasted breath on my part, but I am not sure. Perhaps in time they will come around and do the simple things I demanded.
Now for the good stuff. (Remember, this is my heated memory of an even more heated discussion. So take it with a grain of salt.) It seems like Matthew is the guy in charge of handling this situation. He explained he is now running Zenair where all of the development is done while Sebastian is handling ZAC which merely produces kits. Matthew doesn't think the NTSB has any standing in this mess. He said they didn't have any proof to convince him that their decision was the right one at least 5 times in the tent session. He has hired a couple of engineering firms to do some studies of the design and he gives them complete credence while considering the NTSB mostly worthless. The good news is he thinks the highly paid engineers will be finished with their work and submit their findings within 2 weeks. He said he will base his further actions on those findings.
My position was that the NTSB ruling was authoritative and needed to be respected. Since the NTSB screamed we need aileron mass balancing we need aileron mass balancing. I feel even more strongly that we need an engineering change for the stick sensitivity problem identified in the NTSB report. It seems to me this problem makes it more likely that a panicked pilot will pull the wings off since it gets progressively easier to do as the load increases. I told him and several of the FAA folks that I can't imagine any reason why this problem should not be corrected.
My point about the changes is that only the Heintz clan and their companies can issue an authoritative engineering change. Only their companies (and their father) have the expertise and knowledge of the design history to make a reasonable determination that the new changes won't cause unexpected problems in the remainder of the design. I also said he didn't need to keep covering his rear end regarding the question of the real need for these changes. The NTSB has already taken the heat for demanding these changes for the whole fleet, while Matthew made it clear his whole effort will only consider the current drawings and not all the changes and variations the home builders have introduced. Matthew can release the changes with a caveat that he doesn't think they will help but at least they won't hurt anything. This is the normal way Zenith approves of design changes submitted for review by builders.
My general impression is that it will take a long time for Matthew the come around and issue the needed design changes. I expect my plane to be grounded (by me) for a long time. The central issue is Matthew's decision process, and he doesn't seem to see it my way. I will continue to apply as much pressure on him as I can, even thought I think it is wasted effort. I simply have no reasonable alternative.
Paul
XL grounded
[quote][b]
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Zenith should be able to take the results from the outside engineering firms
(which probably includes the active vibration testing being done in Germany
and shown in the YouTube video) to the NTSB and the FAA. Then somebody (or
everybody) may shift their position. If the whole of the outside testing is
made public then it can be peer reviewed and/or enlightened amateurs (like
us) can make our own decisions (assuming the FAA doesn't preempt us). Based
on what I saw in the video there is going to be more vibration data
available on the XL than any other LSA.
The worrisome outcome is if the outside engineering investigations don't
offer any new recommendations. Then we are back to where we are now with a
high percentage of unexplained crashes and no way forward (unless you
believe flutter explains all).
-- Craig
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JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Hey guys, does this mean we're not going to have a picnic Thursday night at Sun n Fun ? You crazy fellows are just joking around, right? Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL- 3300 Jab, 145 hours, Push Rod Aileron Controls and SMILING HAPPY
In a message dated 4/21/2009 11:09:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Zenith should be able to take the results from the outside engineering firms
(which probably includes the active vibration testing being done in Germany
and shown in the YouTube video) to the NTSB and the FAA. Then somebody (or
everybody) may shift their position. If the whole of the outside testing is
made public then it can be peer reviewed and/or enlightened amateurs (like
us) can make our own decisions (assuming the FAA doesn't preempt us). Based
on what I saw in the video there is going to be more vibration data
available on the XL than any other LSA.
The worrisome outcome is if the outside engineering investigations don't
offer any new recommendations. Then we are back to where we are now with a
high percentage of unexplained crashes and no way forward (unless you
believe flutter explains all).
-- ========================; the ties Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
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A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[quote][b]
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to t |
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Mr. Mulwitz;
Maybe a few people will be impressed by your vitupirative attack on the Heintz family. If you are so knowledgeable about aircraft design why do you bother with such "poorly designed" airplanes as those from Zenith. Start your own company design an aircraft the way you want it and fly off into the sunset and oblivion. I doubt that you will do this as you are just a complainer.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
A Good Cr575x1221621490x1201450102/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter421NO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[quote][b]
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Paul,
When I first read your diatribe yesterday morning I decided to really think about your post before I replied. I’m glad I did, because most of what I would have said was said by others. But mainly because your responses to those posts, along with the original post, show that you are at least somewhat skewed in your thinking. Let’s face it there are a lot of folks that would brag about their ability to kill people with their bare hands in a forum such as this especially when discussing a topic such as this. And since you admitted to being “…very emotional in my dealings with the Heintz brothers, Sebastian and especially Matthew.” I’m surprised they spent any time talking to you at all. I know I wouldn’t have in their position.
You have made the decision to ground your airplane and that is your right. If you aren’t comfortable flying it then you most certainly shouldn’t. But your overwhelming belief that the NTSB is right and anything they say should be followed without question shows that you know very little about the way government works in general and the way aviation rules in particular are made. As has already been made clear the NTSB isn’t the final say in matters such as this and they were never designed to be. And that is a good thing. It is called checks and balances and you will see it throughout our government.
In one of your posts today you again show that you don’t understand how the NTSB process works. You seem to think there is some wall of separation between the board members and the investigators. There isn’t. The board members make their decisions based on the reports of the NTSB investigators as well as outside data that is available. In this case it seems they are completely ignoring their investigators and relying heavily on outside data. I say this because the only mention in any NTSB investigative report concerning flutter is in that there is no direct evidence that it took place in the accident aircraft. I’m not saying that flutter did not happen. I am saying that I don’t know and neither does the NTSB.
The NTSB reports quotes several 601XL pilots that experienced what they described as flutter. In all cases cited cables were not tensioned properly. The only place where the NTSB letter says an accident 601XL “may” have experienced flutter with properly tensioned cables is the Antelope Island accident in March of this year. The builder, who was not flying the plane, states the aileron tension was checked before first flight and again 6 flight hours before the accident. I have two problems with this. First and foremost I am shocked that the board is taking action based on an accident where the investigation is anywhere close to finished. Second, and I’m not making any statement about this individual builder, but for him to say anything other than the cables were tensioned properly would be was is known as “A Statement Against Interest.” And this would all be fine but the NTSB letter seems to be using it as the basis for their position that proper aileron tension is not enough to provide protection from flutter.
Another place where the NTSB report seems out of phase with the real world is the first page where they mention in the footnote #2 that there are planes with both hingeless and hinged ailerons. But, in the body they are saying that all the planes are “…is essentially the same.” This statement is absurd. To ignore the fact that not a single hingeless aircraft has been involved in one of the accidents makes me question the NTSB’s decision process and motives. It also removes what might well be the easiest and most practical fix for the problem, i.e. Replace the hinged ailerons with the hingeless design.
Let’s all remember how the hinged option came about in the first place. Many people thought the hingeless design was weird or didn’t trust it despite the testing that is shown on the Zenith website. So Zenith caved and presented builders with a hinged option. Time may prove that this was a fatal mistake on Zenith’s part. Think about this. The hingeless ailerons are “stiffer” than the hinged variety. If a cable is loose allowing flutter to develop it is only logical to conclude that the stiffer aileron is going to less susceptible to it and even if it does develop easier to get under control. Anecdotal (hey if it is good enough for the NTSB…) reports bare this out because there are reports of loose cables on hingeless models developing early stage flutter that was controlled by pilot action.
The other issue that the NTSB seems to have an issue with the gradient of force on the elevator. This has really never been much of an issue though Zenith did provide the elevator stop modification to reduce over control. I can’t speak much on this because I have yet to be able to fly the 601XL in the parts of the envelope where it might be an issue. But it is my view that this is a training issue. There is precedent for the NTSB and the FAA to deal with this issue via training. For more information on that I’d suggest you Google SFAR 74.
Finally, I’d like to point out that at one time the issue of the design strength in general was questions. The only issue that the NTSB seemed to have was with the Ultimate Design Load and that it may fall short of +6Gs but only slightly. Easy fix, get out your plans if you are building or your log and POA if you are flying. Take a pen and mark out “+6Gs” and write in “+5Gs”.
The following is for the builders only. Those of you that seem to have lost all faith in the design, designer and the company that sold you the plans; I see no option for you other than give up on the plane. There are those of you that will never be happy and life is to short to spend time building a plane you are not happy with. You will be out some money but stuff happens. And since lawsuits have been mentioned both here and in other places I’d suggest you go back and read the “CONDITIONS OF SALE AND WARNING NOTICE” that not only you but also your spouse or next of kin signed when you bought your plans or kit. Here’s a link: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/data/601-price-orderform.pdf
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W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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