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suitable backup instrumentation for IFR
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:38 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

How about a few panel lights and one white spot for the pilot's lap so 

you can read a kneeboard and the essential instruments and leave all the 

other illumination on the main buss?

Linn



Perry, Phil wrote:

[quote] 



 Still in the planning session, but it's on the E-bus.  For the marginal

 amount of power it draws, there's really no benefit to moving off the

 E-bus - but there's a whole lot of drawbacks to losing it.  



 Same thing for LED cabin lights.  Having two hands to fly the airplane

 in an emergency beats holding a flashlight in one hand, flipping charts

 in the other, and flying the airplane with your knees.  They draw very

 little power and the upside is much greater than the downside.



 Phil





 --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

How about two buses and all each appliance to its own breaker; then make all

breakers pull able or toggle able. With everything selectable on either bus

trim can be on either bus and still be useable. My avionics master is a

toggle able breaker. The single alternator can push power to the essential

bus through a power diode or through an avionics breaker which connects the

two buses. The alternator can get its excitation voltage from the essential

bus battery instead of the main battery if off line. That way I still have

control over the electric fuel pump for landing as well as any other

appliances which may be needed for only a short time or after landing. 



--

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

They only draw 20ma (per light) so it's really not worth putting your

interior lighting behind a lock and then throwing away the key.

(Assuming LED lighting - haven't done the math on others.)



If you give lighting to all seats your passenger can flip charts for

you.  Or help you dig through the flight bag that's sitting the back

seat.  Even at a full 1hr run time 20ma is nothing, but even then you

probably won't run the lights all the time.  You can turn them on and

use them for 2 minutes and then shut them off.  That essentially turns

the consumption into .6ma and you were still able to have lighting.



But even assuming you ran the lights for a full hour at 20ma, that's

only a second or two of extra run-time taken off your 15A emergency

load.  I'd trade a couple of seconds for lights.  Having lights

available for use will help you shave more than a couple of seconds in

time off your flight.  You'll get your charts quicker, find buttons

quicker, be able to make decisions quicker.  I'll bet the time ROI is

well over 1000%.



I just see no benefit to moving them off the E-bus.



Phil

--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Also I should have some real world knowledge of lightning strikes soon. A

friend of 40 years was flying the state of Illinois King Air several years

ago and took a lihtning strike wih the govenor aboard. I will pick his brain

about this. 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

I put in touch lights above the rear passengers, where the

seatbelts attach.  Gives them battery powered lighting

that is independent of all busses, and no need to run wires.

Can provide pics if you want.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Perry, Phil wrote:

[quote] 

 

 They only draw 20ma (per light) so it's really not worth putting your

 interior lighting behind a lock and then throwing away the key.

 (Assuming LED lighting - haven't done the math on others.)

 

 If you give lighting to all seats your passenger can flip charts for

 you.  Or help you dig through the flight bag that's sitting the back

 seat.  Even at a full 1hr run time 20ma is nothing, but even then you

 probably won't run the lights all the time.  You can turn them on and

 use them for 2 minutes and then shut them off.  That essentially turns

 the consumption into .6ma and you were still able to have lighting.

 

 But even assuming you ran the lights for a full hour at 20ma, that's

 only a second or two of extra run-time taken off your 15A emergency

 load.  I'd trade a couple of seconds for lights.  Having lights

 available for use will help you shave more than a couple of seconds in

 time off your flight.  You'll get your charts quicker, find buttons

 quicker, be able to make decisions quicker.  I'll bet the time ROI is

 well over 1000%.

 

 I just see no benefit to moving them off the E-bus.

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 

 

 --

taildragon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Tim,

  

 Which touch lights did you use and where did you find them?

  

 Thank you

 [quote]   ---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Here are the ones I used:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20070321/index.html



I just got them at the local Menards (like Lowes / Home Depot, only

not as cool.  )



I didn't use the sticky-tape backing to put them up, but instead

shot a glob of E6000 glue on the back plate, and REMOVED the

magnet.  This is a big deal...that magnet is strong enough

to affect AHRS that are feet away and compasses in the cabin.

It pops out real easily.  I just made those aluminum plates

that go under the nut/bolt and give a place to glue it up.

No wires required.  I want to find a good way to pad those

bolts some day....been on my to-do list for quite a while.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD



Roger Standley wrote:

[quote] Tim,

  

 Which touch lights did you use and where did you find them?

  

 Thank you

 

     ---

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Ok here is my 2 cents worth.  Being a retired USAF Flight engineer with

thousands of hours flying hard IFR world wide and in the worst weather ever,

and the least amount of good equipment, we did not even have GPS just INS

and Steam and Tape gages, but we did have Color Radar that was nice for

thunder storms.  



I have been hit by Lightning numerous times, and never once did we loose

anything electrical at all.  Remember the lightning is just a arc that is

going from negative to positive charge molecules.  The current enters thru

usually a very small pin hole then travels thru the airframe structure, then

out a very large hole, usually on the tail of the airplane somewhere. The

only equipment that I have seen be affected by a lightning strike was the HO

radio and that was because the lightning exited the airplane via the HP

Radio antenna that was embedded into the Vertical stabilizer leading edge

panel.  It blew out the front of the antenna and left a fist size hole in

it.  



I truly think the thought process of a lighning strike is a none issue.  The

is airplane wise.  But nerve wise that's another issue.  It will rattle the

best persons nerves.  I truly thought we hit a wall the first time I was

struck by lightning. It will scare the SH******t out of you.



John Cumins

40864 Emp in pieces getting deburred and primed prior to assembly

Your Total Technology Solution Provider

--

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

I know an airline pilot who flies CRJ 70's I believe.  Theirs are equipped

with pretty nice all glass panels which one day just up and went blank on

him while shooting the ILS in solid IMC.  All of his and the FO's screens

just blanked.  He said they weren't out of the muck yet but pretty close.

They just kept going starring at the backup round gauges and didn't make any

drastic changes and continued to an uneventful landing.  I never heard if

they figure out a cause.



-Ben

--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

We are always having joust sessions at work between opening and closing

of CBs.  Pilots have one position (Pullable), Mechanics have a second

(Settable) and now the FAA wants to clarify a third (One time only) with

the new SIAD. Ya, all might read the SIAD on circuit breakers when

forming your position, as you formulate your build plans.  Some feel a

CB is an Inflight form of Switch.



John C.



--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Very interesting.



I just talked to a friend who is a newly qualified C5 Galaxy Flight 

Engineer.  He hasn't experienced one yet but the concensus is 

"non-issue" electrically. 



Thanks



John Cumins wrote:

[quote] 



 Ok here is my 2 cents worth.  Being a retired USAF Flight engineer with

 thousands of hours flying hard IFR world wide and in the worst weather ever,

 and the least amount of good equipment, we did not even have GPS just INS

 and Steam and Tape gages, but we did have Color Radar that was nice for

 thunder storms.  



 I have been hit by Lightning numerous times, and never once did we loose

 anything electrical at all.  Remember the lightning is just a arc that is

 going from negative to positive charge molecules.  The current enters thru

 usually a very small pin hole then travels thru the airframe structure, then

 out a very large hole, usually on the tail of the airplane somewhere. The

 only equipment that I have seen be affected by a lightning strike was the HO

 radio and that was because the lightning exited the airplane via the HP

 Radio antenna that was embedded into the Vertical stabilizer leading edge

 panel.  It blew out the front of the antenna and left a fist size hole in

 it.  



 I truly think the thought process of a lighning strike is a none issue.  The

 is airplane wise.  But nerve wise that's another issue.  It will rattle the

 best persons nerves.  I truly thought we hit a wall the first time I was

 struck by lightning. It will scare the SH******t out of you.



 John Cumins

 40864 Emp in pieces getting deburred and primed prior to assembly

 Your Total Technology Solution Provider

 --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

I use the W23 and W31 series. ; hence pull able and toggle able seem to fit.

The only place I used switches were to ground the magnetos. 



--

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Spoken like a pilot that "hasn't experienced one yet"



Robin

Do Not Archive

--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Yeah, I have to smile at that too 



However, I was being careful to say, "non-issue electrically".  That 

same flight engineer (not a pilot) said that physical damage is a big 

concern of everyone involved on every strike.  He told me about a 6 hour 

delay he experienced when the crew spotted what appeared to be hole in 

the upper fin.  It was immediately assumed to be lightning damage even 

though no one was aware of strike.   Since the top of the fin is several 

stories off the ground they needed  scaffolding to inspect it, but high 

winds prevented them from bringing that out for while (6 hours).  When 

they were finally able to get up there, it turned out to be a big blob 

of grease from a refueling tanker(!)



Anyway, all the posts seem to point to physical damage being a likely 

outcome from a strike, but no one has identified a complete or 

unrecoverable electrical failure resulting from a strike yet.  Sort of 

like Aeroelectric Bob's insistence that modern avionics don't fail from 

"voltage spikes"  Let's keep searching!



Bill "keeping his shorts dry and clean fooling around in the shop" Watson

Robin Marks wrote:

[quote] 



 Spoken like a pilot that "hasn't experienced one yet"



 Robin

 Do Not Archive

 --

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Hey that's what I was a C-5 Flight Engineer until retiring in 94 over 13

years flying sideways best job in the world.



John G. Cumins

40864 emp



--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Flying sideways.. I like that.



Well, my friend is actually my "little brother" from  previous 

involvement in the Big Brother program.  I'm just busting out proud of 

this young man!



It doesn't seem to be bad duty in a war time USAF.  The long hours seem 

to lead him home on a pretty regular basis.  At least compared to too 

many of his peers.



Bill

do not archive



John Cumins wrote:

[quote] 



 Hey that's what I was a C-5 Flight Engineer until retiring in 94 over 13

 years flying sideways best job in the world.



 John G. Cumins

 40864 emp



 --

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Well, the main bus on my Mooney has non-pullable breakers, under a

cover panel. The aux bus has boost pump, landing light, pitot heat,

nav lights and strobes all on P&B circuit breaker switches. They seem

to wear out after perhaps 40 years/6000 hours..just causes them to

trip at lower amps.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:04 PM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 We are always having joust sessions at work between opening and closing

 of CBs.  Pilots have one position (Pullable), Mechanics have a second

 (Settable) and now the FAA wants to clarify a third (One time only) with

 the new SIAD. Ya, all might read the SIAD on circuit breakers when

 forming your position, as you formulate your build plans.  Some feel a

 CB is an Inflight form of Switch.



 John C.



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

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