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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

I have worn the OUT side of my tires after I determined  if it is towed in or out can I shim the plate that holds the axel ass. on?



Malcolm Brubaker 

 Michigan Sport

 Pilot Repair 

 LSRM-A, PPC, WS

 (989)513-3022



--- On Wed, 2/17/10, fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

Subject: Clear tubing

To: "Kitfox List" <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 9:04 PM



       I'm down for annual and I'm changing out my tubing  for the sight gauges and vent lines.  I have always used Tygon tubing  (1/4"ID) and although it stays flexible, the best I can get from it is 2 years  before it yellows so badly that it is no longer easy to see the fuel  levels.

 Can anyone recommend a tubing for this  purpose that can stand up to auto gas and last a little longer than 2  years, or is this the best I'm going to get considering the  circumstances?

 Any input appreciated.

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert,  in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning  economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

  

  

  

  

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PMorel

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Locust Grove, GA USA

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:17 am Post subject: wheel tracking

Malcolm

  

 Before you consider attempting to change the tracking of your wheels, consider this.  What I'm talking about is the gear leg that uses bungee cords and not the grove gear.  With bungee cords, the gear is toe in to keep the bungee cords from extending and wheels spreading outward during taxi and take-off.  Naturally, if the wheels were toe out, then the gears would want to spread out and the bungee cords would stretch.  The perfect scenario would be to have a straight track, but even with that, I think you may be looking for a potential problem.  You need to decide if replacement of the tires and expense outweighs the possibility of bungee cord breaking and more expensive damage and repairs.  

  

 Paul Morel

 Model IV Speedster

 Locust Grove GA



  [quote][b]

_________________
Paul Morel
912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA

www.WingsAirPhotos.com

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:26 am Post subject: wheel tracking

Whether you want toe in or toe out depends on whether you have conventional gear or tricycle gear.  

   

On conventional gear toe in will make the plane very squirrely while landing.  If the tail goes one side or other on landing the main gear will swerve the opposite direction this can lead to a ground loop.  

   

On tricycle gear toe in is not really necessary as the CG of the plane tends to keep things straight.  However some planes do have a little toe in to help assist in keeping the plane straight.  

   

Either way toe in or toe out the shift from straight is usually about 1 degree max.  

   

If you are worried about your bungee gear  not being able to handle a little toe out then you better stay away from grass strips where it will get far more workout.  These are very light planes and if your tires are wearing on the outside it sounds to me like you have way too much toe in.  

   

My plane a model III-A ( That is what it was sold as by Denney) The toe in can only be changes by de-tempering the welds of the legs, using brute force, then re-tempering the joints.  If your axel stub is bolted to the leg/s then I assume you do have a spring leg.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PMorel

 Sent: February 18, 2010 12:45 PM

 To: brubakermal(at)yahoo.com; kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: re: wheel tracking  

  

  

       

Malcolm  

    

   

    

Before you consider attempting to change the tracking of your wheels, consider this.  What I'm talking about is the gear leg that uses bungee cords and not the grove gear.  With bungee cords, the gear is toe in to keep the bungee cords from extending and wheels spreading outward during taxi and take-off.  Naturally, if the wheels were toe out, then the gears would want to spread out and the bungee cords would stretch.  The perfect scenario would be to have a straight track, but even with that, I think you may be looking for a potential problem.  You need to decide if replacement of the tires and expense outweighs the possibility of bungee cord breaking and more expensive damage and repairs.    

    

   

    

Paul Morel  

    

Model IV Speedster  

    

Locust Grove GA  

  

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        [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: Re: wheel tracking

Malcom, from your measurements...3 5/16" between both wheels in six feet... my rough calculation is that each wheel is toed in about 2 degrees if they are toed in equally.  That doesn't seem like much if you are happy with how it handles.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: wheel tracking

I put the 3-5/16" over 72" in my drawing program and it comes out to be 

2.79°



Lowell

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: wheel tracking

Just out of curiosity Lowell did you use the straight forward distance as

the 72"or the hypotenuse as 72"?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

If the initial measurement was taken after the plane was pushed  

backwards, the measurement was done incorrectly. The plane must be  

pushed forward 8-10 feet to neutralize the landing gear before any  

measurement will make any sense. The plane in question might be  

different, however.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 855 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~145 to go(157 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Feb 19, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Just out of curiosity Lowell did you use the straight forward  

 distance as

 the 72"or the hypotenuse as 72"?



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

Noel,



I just drew a 72" line with approximately 2-5/16 offset and had the program 

calculate the angle.  My guess was that original measurements were eyeballed 

and and that is what I did on the computer.  It has been over 50 years since 

I had trig, so the cosine stuff was way out of my league.



Lowell

---

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:04 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

i did back the plane in the hanger then took of the tires and rime and used the wheel hubs for the straight edge.   should I put the wheels back on and push the plane into the hanger then take the wheels off to take the measurements?   and once again was your calculations 1.25  or 2.78deg off  and at 1.25 deg will the tires wear badly?



Malcolm Brubaker 

 Michigan Sport

 Pilot Repair 

 LSRM-A, PPC, WS

 (989)513-3022



--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[quote]

From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: re: wheel tracking

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 10:24 PM



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <[url=/mc/compose?to=lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net]lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net[/url]>



Noel,



I just drew a 72" line with approximately 2-5/16 offset and had the program 

calculate the angle.  My guess was that original measurements were eyeballed 

and and that is what I did on the computer.  It has been over 50 years since 

I had trig, so the cosine stuff was way out of my league.



Lowell

---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

Malcolm,

I calculated total toe in as you gave a measurement that gave total 

difference front to back of your rods.  I think Noel gave the toe in for 

each wheel.  His combined would be 2.25°, which is close to my calculation.



I have done several such measurements on different landing gear sets and the 

right and left are usually not the same.  I have found on occasion that the 

total discrepancy is on one gear leg alone.



Regarding your question, I think I would go on the feel of the airplane on 

landing - if it doesn't feel squirrely to you, I would ignore it.  If you 

are concerned with tire wear, you might consider tweaking it, but that 

procedure can be a challenge.  What you might do is remount the tires so you 

will wear the opposite side.



Lowell



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:32 am Post subject: wheel tracking

Lowell I did it the olod fashioned way... almost my slide rule is in my car





I used a straight ahead measurement of 72" as an adjacent side and 2.3125 as

an opposite side then calculated the tan (t=O/A) to be 0.03211805556  the

anti tan of which was 1.839---- deg



Then for comparison I used the 72 inches as a hypotenuse and the sine

function (S=O/H) I would get 1.840...deg



For anyone else reading I'm not getting into significant figures but I

suppose that the measurements were good to three decimal places.



P.S. I wonder if I can still do the calculations on the slide rule 



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:32 am Post subject: wheel tracking

As usual Lowell you are spot on!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:51 am Post subject: wheel tracking

well it dos feel squirrelly on landing I will look into taking measurements to decide  if one is out of tow moor than the other. and i have already turned the tires around thank you for youre input  mal



Malcolm Brubaker 

 Michigan Sport

 Pilot Repair 

 LSRM-A, PPC, WS

 (989)513-3022



--- On Sat, 2/20/10, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

[quote]

From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Subject: RE: re: wheel tracking

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 4:31 PM



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <[url=/mc/compose?to=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]>



As usual Lowell you are spot on!



Noel



--

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

Guys,  

Not trying to be controversial or say I know better than anyone else how to setup gear legs, just my 2 cents worth on what I did on my last model 4 with bungee gear and I was pleased with the handling results. I set my wheels so they were between straight and slightly toed out. My reasoning was based off some experience I had racing snowmobile ovals. The reason being as you entered a corner and if your weight got shifted hard to the outside of the sled for whatever reason (which sometimes would happen hitting ruts and holes) you did not want that outside ski to dart the sled back to the inside since your weight was already headed in the other direction, it would jettison you from the sled for sure. My thoughts were to apply the same thinking to the tail dragger, if you get a little squirrelly on landing and the plane rocks to the outside and loads that gear, I did not want it darting the plane back the other way. So that is why I set up my gear as such. It worked great for me. I have landed my 4 at a variety of paved strips in cross winds of 15 gusting to 20 (that’s another story) and have never had a problem with ground handling or the plane getting squirrely on me. But as has been stated here before, in the end it is all about what works for you and experimenting with what is not working to get results you are happy with, so with that said, here is something else to consider / ponder as you seek the perfect setup. Also, I have heard it said that setting up the gear slightly toed out would cause your bungee gear to track out and slightly collapse the gear, for me I did not find that to be the case, however, my build was 537 pounds empty.  

Lloyd Cudnohufsky  

Model 5 912uls IVO IFA

 Northern mi. /   

A work in progress     

   

           

well it dos feel squirrelly on landing I will look into   taking measurements to decide  if one is out of tow moor than the other.   and i have already turned the tires around thank you for youre input    mal

   

   Malcolm Brubaker 

   Michigan Sport

   Pilot Repair 

   LSRM-A, PPC, WS

   (989)513-3022

   

   

           

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larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

As long as you brought it up. I Agree!  I flew  an Aeronca Chief for a while that had one main a bit toed in. Every time the  weight shifted to that side the wheel wanted to track right under the nose and  th opposite wing tip would head for the sky. Was fine in a crosswind as long as  it was from the correct side.   ;o)   Larry Huntley 4-1200  Soob  500hrs+

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

Nice airplane Lloyd.  I agree with your  assessment 100 percent and you explained it very well.  I personally  wouldn't recommend that anyone with a taildragger have any toe-in at all.   Zero.  Neutral to a little toe-out is best, in my opinion.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

LLoyd,



I couildn't agree more.  I also like the illustration with the snowmobiles - 

a perfect example.    And a very nice looking airplane - I like the scheme. 

I am getting ready to paint and all bets are still on the table.



Lowell



---

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

Deke,  

Thanks for the compliment. That was my Model 4 XL, attached is a pic of my Model 5 I am working on. (Shooting to have it in the air this summer) It is a little bit farther along than the picture. Tail feathers, wheel pants and cowl are on and the cowl painted. I have one wing to finish repairs on and paint and both wingtips to repair. I am currently installing the IVO IFA Prop, I’m changing the brush location for the prop pitch motor so it is transferred through the hollow gearbox main shaft to behind the gearbox.   

Lloyd Cudnohufsky  

Model 5 912ul IVO IFA

 Northern mi. /   

A work in progress     

   

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer

 Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 4:05 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: re: wheel tracking  

  

  

     

Nice airplane Lloyd.  I agree with your assessment 100 percent and you explained it very well.  I personally wouldn't recommend that anyone with a taildragger have any toe-in at all.  Zero.  Neutral to a little toe-out is best, in my opinion.  

    

Deke  

    

   

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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: wheel tracking

Lowell,

Thanks for the compliments, I enjoyed the time I spent designing and

painting the plane and am enjoying designing and applying the paint scheme

to the model 5 I am building now as well.  I look forward to seeing what you

come up with, I have seen allot of beautiful and creative designs come off

this list, (and to be honest I have borrowed and built on a few)

Lloyd Cudnohufsky

Model 5 912ul IVO IFA

Northern Mi. 

A work in Progress



--

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: Re: wheel tracking

Thats a great black and white paint scheme...on N197BR...is that a Model 4 or 5????

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

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