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flap flap again

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david(at)carneyaviation.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: flap flap again

# AA-1B N9664L (at) ILG << has used flaps on T/O and lived to tell about it.



from the manufacturer's Owner's Manuals:



AA1 - flaps UP (pg 11), no change for soft-field takeoff (pg 15)

AA1A - flaps UP (pg 14), * * * modified for soft fields (pg 1 * * *

AA1B - flaps UP (pg 2-4), no change for soft fields (pg 3-3)

AA1C - don't have that book



I have no idea why the recommendation would be different for AA1A and AA1B.



For AA1A, the owner's manual sez



    The soft field ground run can be reduced with the use of FULL

    flap.  The flap extended take-off technique is identical to that

    with flaps retracted.



--------------------------------------------------



OK, now who had that formula for The Step?



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aa1bflyboy(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: flap flap again

Thanks Dave. Actually my experiance with the flaps down on T/O was when I 

was still a student pilot. I did a touch-n-go and forgot to raise them right 

away. I did notice I left the ground almost imediately but after climbing to 

about 100' AGL my climb performance went to shit. I then checked my flaps 

and sure enough when raised 64L's climb improved a good bit. She never did 

quit climbing though even with full flaps.



Do a lot, get a little;

Do a little, get a lot;

Do nothing, get it all.

Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L (at) ILG



----Original Message Follows----

From: "David Feinstein" <david(at)carneyaviation.com>

Reply-To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

To: <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: flap flap again

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 07:52:08 -0400




<david(at)carneyaviation.com>



# AA-1B N9664L (at) ILG << has used flaps on T/O and lived to tell about it.



from the manufacturer's Owner's Manuals:



AA1 - flaps UP (pg 11), no change for soft-field takeoff (pg 15)

AA1A - flaps UP (pg 14), * * * modified for soft fields (pg 1 * * *

AA1B - flaps UP (pg 2-4), no change for soft fields (pg 3-3)

AA1C - don't have that book



I have no idea why the recommendation would be different for AA1A and AA1B.



For AA1A, the owner's manual sez



     The soft field ground run can be reduced with the use of FULL

     flap.  The flap extended take-off technique is identical to that

     with flaps retracted.



--------------------------------------------------



OK, now who had that formula for The Step?



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jamey

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: flap flap again

I'd be pretty surprised to fly a plane that didn't climb with flaps

deployed.  I think the real fear is that you won't climb fast enough to

clear an obstacle rather than you won't climb period.  Certainly at high

density altitudes you could presumably aggravate the climb gods enough by

dropping your flaps that maybe you'd be negative on the climb rate but this

should be fairly exceptional for most aircraft I'd think.  I refer only to

familiar single and probably multi-engined GA aircraft and make no

assumptions about more exotic fare or anything that reports it's speed in

mach numbers.  Are there common aircraft in anyone's experience that will

not climb under near standard conditions with flaps deployed?



Jamey



--

david(at)carneyaviation.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: flap flap again

# I'd be pretty surprised to fly a plane that didn't climb with

# flaps deployed.



It's a certification requirement:   14 CFR 23.77-a-3

Don't know what rules apply to experimentals.

flyv35b(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: flap flap again

FAR 23.77(a)3 also says you don't have to show this sea level 3.3 percent 

climb gradient with landing flaps IF the flaps can be retracted in 2 seconds 

or less without loss of altitude.  That probably precludes most electrically 

operated flaps.



Maybe this is one reason why the 2 place Grummans have such small flaps that 

don't offer much drag (or lift).



To answer Jamey's question I would be surprised if a Cessan 150 can climb 

with it's big flaps fully lowered.  If so, it's not much and probably won't 

meet the FAR 23 requirements, but then it was not certified under part 23. 

Also, there are a lot of planes that won't climb at higher density altitudes 

with the flaps lowered.



Cliff  A&P/IA

---

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: flap flap again

In a message dated 4/15/06 6:38:04 AM, flyv35b(at)ashcreekwireless.com writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   To answer Jamey's question I would be surprised if a Cessan 150 can climb

 with it's big flaps fully lowered.=A0 If so, it's not much and probably won't

 meet the FAR 23 requirements, but then it was not certified under part 23.

 Also, there are a lot of planes that won't climb at higher density altitudes

 with the flaps lowered.




	


Ken (LyCon) Tunnel's daughter was killed in a C-150 trying to climb out with

full flaps.   She spun it into the ground from about 300 feet.   Maybe a plane

CAN climb with full flaps.   But, WHY?

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:35 am Post subject: flap flap again

In a message dated 4/15/06 2:54:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

TeamGrumman(at)aol.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ken (LyCon) Tunnel's daughter was killed in a C-150 trying to climb out with

  full flaps.   She spun it into the ground from about 300 feet.   Maybe a 

 plane

  CAN climb with full flaps.   But, WHY?

========================
	


About 7 years ago, there was an accident at Linden AP (KLDJ), NJ when an 

instructor took up a professional photographer for a photo shoot, it was in a 

C-150 or 152.  During take off the photographer moved his camera bag onto his lap 

.. This pressed down the flap switch (which is panel located in front of the 

copilot) to the full flap down position.  The plane attained a few 100 feet 

and then stalled and crashed on the departure end of the runway.  There were 

lucky things that day:

1 - No one was killed.

2 - The plane did not make it off the airport.  A couple of 100 feet after 

the end of the runway is a major road, Route 1.  Right next to the road was a 

gas station.  Across the street is the Chrysler Assembly Plant.



RULE:  Cockpit Clean - Manage your cockpit resources.  And brief your 

passengers and CoPilot!



To help me in my briefing I have a - 

Placard for the CoPilot:

1 - Don't say anything 

2 - Don't touch anything



And I rule I keep in mind:

CoPilot - Just another damn gage to watch!

Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

jamey

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: flap flap again

I'm certainly not advocating the practice but having gone around in a DA-20,

C172, AA5B, and BE36 as part of flight training now all at some point from a

full flap configuration all of these has offered a definite full-flap

positive rate of climb as power was applied and prior to retracting flaps

though nothing near the appropriate climb configuration.  It just seemed odd

to me that a small light aircraft where people and particularly students

would predictably be transitioning from a full-flap landing configuration to

a full-power climb on a go around would lack the ability to climb with the

flaps out.



My problem now is that I got used to using flaps only when needed for

landing the Tiger (if I was high/fast or what not) but with the A36 I'm

seldom high/fast with the gear out and prop flattenend out so I totally

forget to deploy the flaps.  I need to do that more as it lowers the nose,

particularly with stuff in the back seats and actually does improve

low-speed behavior.  This and I had the nav-lights on yesterday in the 36

(cruddy weather so I flipped the strobes, landing, nav-lights on) but this

dims the 3-position gear lights to the point of being undetectable in

daylight which caused me to go around at Hollister before I thought to cup

my hand carefully over the lights and really take a close look.  Now no nav

lights unless at night for me.  Still learning:)



Jamey



--

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: flap flap again

In a message dated 4/16/06 8:40:42 AM, jamey(at)jamescourtney.net writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My problem now is that I got used to using flaps only when needed for

 landing the Tiger (if I was high/fast or what not) but with the A36 I'm

 seldom high/fast with the gear out and prop flattenend out so I totally

 forget to deploy the flaps.=A0




	


I always land with full flaps, in any wind.   Flying into Lancaster one must

learn how to fly with a lot of nasty cross winds.   I found full flaps were

nice for shortening the landing roll.   I could exit off Bravo taxiway most=20of

the time in winds over 30 mph.



Gary

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

flyv35b(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: flap flap again

 	  Quote: 	
		   My problem now is that I got used to using flaps only when needed for

 landing the Tiger (if I was high/fast or what not) but with the A36 I'm

 seldom high/fast with the gear out and prop flattenend out so I totally

 forget to deploy the flaps.  I need to do that more as it lowers the nose,

 particularly with stuff in the back seats and actually does improve

 low-speed behavior.  This and I had the nav-lights on yesterday in the 36

 (cruddy weather so I flipped the strobes, landing, nav-lights on) but this

 dims the 3-position gear lights to the point of being undetectable in

 daylight which caused me to go around at Hollister before I thought to cup

 my hand carefully over the lights and really take a close look.  Now no 

 nav

 lights unless at night for me.  Still learning:)


	


Not to mention the significant reduction in stall speed with flaps down in 

the Bonanza.  If you ever go into a short field, say 1800 ft, you definitely 

are going to want the flaps down, probably all the way.  I almost always 

land with full flaps in the Bonanza as I do in any of the Grummans.  Turning 

on the nav lights does dim the gear warning lights and I have also had to 

look twice to see if they are on even at dusk with the nav lights on.  Under 

normal circumstances I think it is a good idea to land with flaps in all 

airplanes, unless their is some overriding reason not to.



Cliff

jamey

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: flap flap again

We get a lot of x-wind at KSQL and so I frequently don't use flaps in the

Grumman but as you say, may as well use them in whatever plane if conditions

are favorable and save the brakes:)



Jamey



--

flyv35b(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: flap flap again

Having a x-wing doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't use flaps.

---

jamey

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: flap flap again

"Having a x-wing doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't use flaps."



The lack of flaps is probably what put Luke in the swamp on Dagobah.



<yoda>Use flaps you shall, hmmmm.</yoda>



Seriously, that was a choice typo Cliff:)



Your point is well taken though.  I'll make more use of my flaps.



Jamey



--

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