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pchristensen10(at)austin.
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 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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It's pretty dry here in Austin. Hardly ever over 90% humidity.
Pete
N73BH
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Rich L
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Here is a site I hope catches on. I understand boats use these also. I am lucky to have a couple of stations that sell pure premium nearby. I just used the sight to find a station near the Arlington Airshow to find fuel.
www.pure-gas.org
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:37 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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NOBODY in their right mind would endorse what I'm doing. But, think of all
you guys can talk about if I crash. ;>) After all I do fly an
"Experimental".
Pete
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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I'm all in favour of experimenting when it's done safely. What you have
going for you is the fact that boaters have been doing this for years and
you are doing your own experimentation in little steps. I don't think you
will have any problems. Other than the fact you will be throwing away 10%
of your fuel...maybe.
Speaking about disposing of the ethanol water mix. If you are going to sell
it as fuel you will need to remove the water from it. This is done by
distilling. I think to 180F... Been a long time since I studied that in
high school. I do remember there is a big break where the ethanol stops
running from the still before distilled water starts to run. If you have a
candy thermometer in your mash ( the stuff your're distiooing you will see
at a specific point the alcohol will stop flowing and then somewhere just
below 212F you will see water flow.
Just thinking out loud here but if you have one of those flex fuel vehicles
which are specifically tuned to run E 85 then you can always put your
distilled hooch in the new bucket of bolts. Sorry to say they put something
into the ethanol so you can't distill it to make some fine bourbon or the
like.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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True 10% Ethanol won't hurt the 912 (in the TBO). However there are other
considerations to take into mind; the material the tanks and lines are made
of are a couple. There are others that I don't want to get into here.
Sorry guys but I think booze should be kept at the bar and used only after
there is weight on wheels.... or floats as the case may be. I know many of
us have to, or feel they have to fly on ethanol lace fuel. If you are one
of those people then try to do so as safely as possible.
Never leave fuel in your plane for extended periods of time. After a flight
drain the fuel into your car so you will always have the freshest fuel
available in your plane. Keep a look out for fuel discolouration. Always
keep up on you emergency procedures ( that should be done anyway).
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:12 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Sounds to me you are doing things the right way... if you have to fly on ethanol fuel. Personally I’m not at all fussy about having a “filter” in front of a fuel pump.
I also have a little beef with the word “resistant” No one has been able to give me any definition for it in this context. Changing the tubes every year sounds like a great idea.
In my local there are plenty of places to put a float plane down but there are also very few places to do forced approaches once you leave highway system. For that reason I wouldn’t feel right flying with hooch in my gas. Luckily for me we don’t grow corn here so there are no distilleries here that means for the next two years there will be no gasohol either. Our prime minister has passed a federal law requiring all service stations to sell at least 10% ethanol fuel in all pumps by the end of 2010. I have no idea how he is planning on getting the stuff here. Two years ago an oil company tried shipping ethanol laced fuel here... it ended up with having to rebuild the ship. I expect that if the really want ot try it here they will have to employ road trains... oops they’re not legal in Canada and local truckers refuse to carry ethanol fuel.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ctmcdowell(at)comcast.net
Sent: July 9, 2010 9:52 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
I've been flying a Rotax 503 for 10 years now, using 10% ethanol gasoline with no problems. I have a Polyproplene fuel tank. Aircraft Spruce sel'ls the 'Blue' fuel line that is Alcohol resistant. I change these lines every year along with the fuel filter.Cheap insurance. I fly between 25 to 50hr a year. I also had an authorized Rotax mechanic tear the engine down to inspect the entire engine and to replace ALL organic materials in the engine, Carbs and fuel filter with alcohol resistant materials. 500hrs and no issues. I also syphon out all the fuel if it sits in the tank for more than two weeks. Syphoning out the tank allows all the small particles in the bottom of the tank to be drawn out.
Tom McDowell-NJ
EAA-216
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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True government makes votes in farm country producing ethanol. Oil companies then add their profit to the ethanol they have to buy and they are happy. Too bad the end user has been sold a bill of goods on ethanol. The bill of goods is it is cheap to produce, there is lots to have, it is clean to burn and of course it’s good for the economy. On the last item when being burnt ethanol gives off less hydrocarbons than gasoline or diesel fuel per gallon used but if you add the close to four gallons of diesel fuel burned to create one gallon of ethanol fuel then it is a lot dirtier.
Some day the leaders of our respective countries will wake up and say, “this is wrong”, and something will be done about it.
The only way that will happen is if the rank and file citizens of our countries put the pressure on the feds to cut the subsidies on ethanol production and change them to subsidies on food production.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: July 9, 2010 10:49 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Removing ethanol from gasoline
Doesn't have to make sense, Noel. The government and oil companies are involved.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, Michigan
do not archive
--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Removing ethanol from gasoline
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 4:26 PM
How’s that... Ethanol is added to the gas as it leaves the distributor... It doesn’t have to be separated... Just not added in the first place. The ethanol in fact costs more than 4 times the cost of the gas to grow and process. That means that gas not contaminated with ethanol should be considerably cheaper.
Noel |
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: July 8, 2010 1:39 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
NOW I understand why ethanol-free gas costs so much more at the pump! 
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, Michigan
do not archive
--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>
Subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 11:43 AM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Pete Christensen" <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>
Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.
In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline without ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive away without any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon cans, but buying the cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van would make that difficult.
I have read everything I can on the subject on the Internet and have corresponded with a few of you online.
Here is what I came up with. Last week I bought a 6-1/2 gallon carboy used for making beer. I put 1 quart of water in the carboy and marked a line at the top of the water. I then poured 5-1/2 gallons of high-test gasohol into the jug. The pouring action stimulates the ethanol to begin separation from the mix. After awhile the water-ethanol has separated from the mix and I mark a new line that indicates the new level of the bottom of cleaned gasoline. I use a siphon to siphon the cleaned gasoline off the top of the water/ethanol leaving a gallon or so of good gas to avoid siphoning up any water. (Note I do NOT pour the out this gas/water/alcohol from the jug.) I can continue pouring gasohol into the carboy and the process starts all over again. After a gallon or two of water/ethanol builds up, I siphon the water/ethanol from the bottom of the jug and add a little more water.
I pour this cleaned gas into my plane through a Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter Funnel, which is supposed to remove any remaining water. (I found no detectable water in the filter after pouring 10 gallons)
I have run this so far about 50/50 with avgas I had in my tank.
I have only flown the one time a couple days ago for more than an hour with no problems. Time will tell if problems develop.
I am NOT endorsing this process for others but only describing what I am doing.
Pete
Kitfox III ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronicbsp; --> h= -->
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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pwmac(at)sisna.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Alky resistant hose is defined as automotive hose SAE R7 or R9.
Use the stuff and forget about changing hose
for many many years just like the auto people do.
Paul
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| Quote: |
I also have a little beef with the word
“resistant” No one has been able to give me
any definition for it in this
context. Changing the tubes every year sounds like a great idea.
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:33 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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If you are using ethanol fuel and find any water in the fuel you are in big
trouble. To an extent the ethanol in the fuel absorbs any water there but
once a saturation point is reached a process called phase separation will
occur. If that happens in your tank the engine will stop. There is no way
for you to tell exactly how much moisture ( water) is in your fuel at any
time so the best thing to do is only to fly on the freshest fuel you can get
and never leave ethanol laced fuel in your plane for long periods of time.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:41 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Like everyone else I was worried about ethanol fuel coming here so I had a
long conversation with a friend of mine who at that time operated a large
commercial laboratory. He actually did experiments for me and told me the
process was safe if I was sure to leave the washed gas for at least twenty
minutes before trying to siphon the gas off. He also told me that most gas
without octane boosters was just below 87 RON. I also asked him to test a
few commercial octane boosters available in the local area. None of them did
anything to increase the temperatures of the flash tests he performed.
A good question is where did he get the E-10 to test? He made it using
laboratory quality ethanol.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
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larry huntley
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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I wonder if it will also handle avgas? Larry
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Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Yes, SAE 30R7 is what I have been using on my plane for a few years,
and I use 100LL exclusively. I have changed some of it just because I
had the lines off to service a filter or increase the size of a line,
or some other reason, and it still looks good, feels flexible, etc.,
but while I had it off, I changed it, unless is was under a year old.
I haven't found it to get hard.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 1006.3 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1000 hrs. plus...
On Jul 11, 2010, at 2:03 PM, larry huntley wrote:
[quote]
<asq(at)roadrunner.com>
I wonder if it will also handle avgas? Larry
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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larry huntley
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Thanks Lynn,
That is a great piece of info. I am going to change mine also because of
age and was trying to find a good hose for all applications. Larry
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Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:43 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Some guys want to be able to see the fuel in their lines and the automotive hoses don't allow that. Personally I agree with you.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Lion8
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:24 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Paul- If I were flying an automobile, I;d buy those hoses and keep them for years. 2 bucks a foot to change hoses ever year or two is very cheap insurance. I haven't yet found a curb to pull up next to on the skyway if Ihave a problem. I use the old Motorcycle adage, "if you got a cheap head-buy a cheap helmet".-Tom
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Tom (Lion8), Currently Flying an LSA Trike
Rebuilding a Kitfox IV Speedster
Southern New Jersey |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:25 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Just because you don’t change the hose every year doesn’t mean they don’t get inspected every 25 hours or so of flight. Why is it certified planes don’t use clear tubes? I agree with clear tubing in some cases like the impulse line a clear tube will show you if oil is getting up behind the pump... it will also let you see if there is any perforation in the diaphragm. I have it on my plane but mostly just because it was there and it’s still not hard. Actually I only have tubing between aluminium tubes and in the engine compartment from the pump to the carbs.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ctmcdowell(at)comcast.net
Sent: July 12, 2010 2:54 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
Paul- If I were flying an automobile, I;d buy those hoses and keep them for years. 2 bucks a foot to change hoses ever year or two is very cheap insurance. I haven't yet found a curb to pull up next to on the skyway if I have a problem. I use the old Motorcycle adage, "if you got a cheap head-buy a cheap helmet".-Tom
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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PMorel
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Locust Grove, GA USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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I've been beating myself up trying to locate ethanol-free auto fuel and found there were several providers close enough for me to take a drive to buy some. I'm sure most of you have seen this site before, but it is new to me. Please add to it for new locations of ethanol-free fuel in case others are looking too.
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp
Paul Morel
912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
[quote][b]
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Paul Morel
912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
www.WingsAirPhotos.com |
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KeysFox
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
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Paul,
Most folks only need to find ethanol free gas in their area.
I take my Kitfox all over the country and really appreciate this web
listing ethanol free gas sites by state.
Good Show. THANKS
BJ
N154KGood
BJ
N154K
do not archive
This is a fab web site on ethanol free gas!
| Quote: | I've been beating myself up trying to locate ethanol-free auto fuel and
found there were several providers close enough for me to take a drive to
buy some. I'm sure most of you have seen this site before, but it is new
to me. Please add to it for new locations of ethanol-free fuel in case
others are looking too.
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp
Paul Morel
912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
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B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023 |
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