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John Jackson
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Shrewsbury, UK
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 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:29 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Gentlemen
I have a 2-place KIS TR-1 G-BZDR which currently has an IO-240 A1B fitted (125HP) spinning an MT Variable pitch 3-blade prop. The prop has been sent for overhaul and the estimate is too expensive for me. Therefore, I'm looking at downgrading to a fixed-pitch 2-blade wooden prop.
The manufacturer will optimise the prop design to suit my aircraft but needs some information which I don't have and wondered if you guys could help. I used to cruise around at 145Kts at 75% power. However, the prop designer wants to know the theoretical max straight and level speed for the aircraft at full throttle. Anyone have any figures to hand for a TR-1 with an IO-240?
I'll be selling the old VP prop if anyone is interested, it's got 360 hours since new but will need calendar overhaul.
John
[quote][b]
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Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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John
which prop manufacturer are you thinking about (Hercules ?), also can you
email me your telephone number Re the Mt prop.
Keith
Tr1 - G-OKMA.
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Gentlemen
I have a 2-place KIS TR-1 G-BZDR which currently has an IO-240 A1B fitted
(125HP) spinning an MT Variable pitch 3-blade prop. The prop has been sent
for overhaul and the estimate is too expensive for me. Therefore, I'm
looking at downgrading to a fixed-pitch 2-blade wooden prop.
The manufacturer will optimise the prop design to suit my aircraft but needs
some information which I don't have and wondered if you guys could help. I
used to cruise around at 145Kts at 75% power. However, the prop designer
wants to know the theoretical max straight and level speed for the aircraft
at full throttle. Anyone have any figures to hand for a TR-1 with an IO-240?
I'll be selling the old VP prop if anyone is interested, it's got 360 hours
since new but will need calendar overhaul.
John
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John Jackson
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Shrewsbury, UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Keith
Hi, yes I was thinking about Hercules, but also thinking about a Prince P-tip too.
My phone number is 07841 470557.
JJ
From: "Keith.Miller(at)esa.int" <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, 11 August, 2011 16:12:21
Subject: Re: VMax - KIS TR-1
--> KIS-List message posted by: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)
John
which prop manufacturer are you thinking about (Hercules ?), also can you
email me your telephone number Re the Mt prop.
Keith
Tr1 - G-OKMA.
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|JOHN JACKSON <helixaviation(at)btinternet.com (helixaviation(at)btinternet.com)> |
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|kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) |
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|VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com) |
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Gentlemen
I have a 2-place KIS TR-1 G-BZDR which currently has an IO-240 A1B fitted
(125HP) spinning an MT Variable pitch 3-blade prop. The prop has been sent
for overhaul and the estimate is too expensive for me. Therefore, I'm
looking at downgrading to a fixed-pitch 2-blade wooden prop.
The manufacturer will optimise the prop design to suit my aircraft but needs
some information which I don't have and wondered if you guys could help. I
used to cruise around at 145Kts at 75% power. However, the prop designer
wants to know the theoretical max straight and level speed for the aircraft
at full throttle. Anyone have any figures to hand for a TR-1 with an IO-240?
I'll be selling the old VP prop if anyone is interested, it's got 360 hours
since new but will need calendar overhaul.
John
http://www.matronics.com/Na - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -; -Matt Dralle, List========
[quote][b]
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Flyinisfun(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:34 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Hi John,
I suggest you contact Lonnie Prince at Prince props. He will work with you by giving him the information you stated in you e-mail. I can imagine he has made props for the engine and etc. configration that you have.
Jesse
[quote][b]
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Check out http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-02_elippse.asp
How much do they get to overhaul the MT and how much do you want for it?
Scott
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 11, 2011, at 7:28 AM, JOHN JACKSON <helixaviation(at)btinternet.com (helixaviation(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]Gentlemen
I have a 2-place KIS TR-1 G-BZDR which currently has an IO-240 A1B fitted (125HP) spinning an MT Variable pitch 3-blade prop. The prop has been sent for overhaul and the estimate is too expensive for me. Therefore, I'm looking at downgrading to a fixed-pitch 2-blade wooden prop.
The manufacturer will optimise the prop design to suit my aircraft but needs some information which I don't have and wondered if you guys could help. I used to cruise around at 145Kts at 75% power. However, the prop designer wants to know the theoretical max straight and level speed for the aircraft at full throttle. Anyone have any figures to hand for a TR-1 with an IO-240?
I'll be selling the old VP prop if anyone is interested, it's got 360 hours since new but will need calendar overhaul.
John
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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8/11/2011
Hello John, I am flying my TCM IO-240 B9B powered KIS TR-1 with a Prince P tip prop. 68 inches diameter, 69 inches pitch. Seems to be a good match, but obviously cannot perform like a variable pitch prop.
You wrote: "However, the prop designer wants to know the theoretical max straight and level speed for the aircraft at full throttle."
Since theoretical implies a number arrived at by calculation rather than measured in the air how does one calculate that number?
Alfred Prosser seemed to be pretty good at number crunching -- maybe he can answer both questions:
A) How to calculate VMax for a KIS TR-1?
B What it is for a IO-240 powered KIS TR-1?
OC
=======================================
From: JOHN JACKSON (helixaviation(at)btinternet.com)
[quote] To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 10:28 AM
Subject: VMax - KIS TR-1
Gentlemen
I have a 2-place KIS TR-1 G-BZDR which currently has an IO-240 A1B fitted (125HP) spinning an MT Variable pitch 3-blade prop. The prop has been sent for overhaul and the estimate is too expensive for me. Therefore, I'm looking at downgrading to a fixed-pitch 2-blade wooden prop.
The manufacturer will optimise the prop design to suit my aircraft but needs some information which I don't have and wondered if you guys could help. I used to cruise around at 145Kts at 75% power. However, the prop designer wants to know the theoretical max straight and level speed for the aircraft at full throttle. Anyone have any figures to hand for a TR-1 with an IO-240?
I'll be selling the old VP prop if anyone is interested, it's got 360 hours since new but will need calendar overhaul.
John
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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John Jackson
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Shrewsbury, UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Scott
Thank you for the link; I think the Elipse prop may be a bit too 'cutting edge' for our LAA here in the UK.
Regarding my prop; it's an MT 3-blade electric variable pitch unit with only 360 hours since new. I sent it to an overhaul agency in the UK for its 6-year calendar overhaul and they inspected it and found some extra works were necessary (replacing the blade ferrules and bearings) which was over and above the standard overhaul. When I discovered the new estimate for the completed overhaul (£4400), I told them not to bother as it was too expensive and send the prop back to me. However, they had already shipped it to the OEM in Germany (without my approval) and I now understand that some of the repair works have already been completed. After a 6-week long email exchange with the overhaul shop, we've finally agreed a fee for their work to date. However, the prop is still with MT and I don't know when it will be returned - soon I hope! Until it is returned to me, I won't be settling their bill and I also don't know what state it is currently in and therefore can't really give you an indication of price. When I get it back, I'll decide on a way forwards and should be able to come up with a fair price.
Thanks for your interest.
John
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:32 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Hi John,
The elipse prop is a bit wacky looking. If it were me i think i would just have the mt prop fixed and keep it. A new prince prop for my airplane would be $2400 US plus shipping. The airplane will be worth more at resale and you might be surprised at the loss of takeoff and climb performance with the fixed prop. My two pence anyhow...
cheers,
Scott
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:28 AM, JOHN JACKSON <helixaviation(at)btinternet.com (helixaviation(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]Scott
Thank you for the link; I think the Elipse prop may be a bit too 'cutting edge' for our LAA here in the UK.
Regarding my prop; it's an MT 3-blade electric variable pitch unit with only 360 hours since new. I sent it to an overhaul agency in the UK for its 6-year calendar overhaul and they inspected it and found some extra works were necessary (replacing the blade ferrules and bearings) which was over and above the standard overhaul. When I discovered the new estimate for the completed overhaul (£4400), I told them not to bother as it was too expensive and send the prop back to me. However, they had already shipped it to the OEM in Germany (without my approval) and I now understand that some of the repair works have already been completed. After a 6-week long email exchange with the overhaul shop, we've finally agreed a fee for their work to date. However, the prop is still with MT and I don't know when it will be returned - soon I hope! Until it is returned to me, I won't be settling their bill and I also don't know what state it is currently in and therefore can't really give you an indication of price. When I get it back, I'll decide on a way forwards and should be able to come up with a fair price.
Thanks for your interest.
John
[b]
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:51 pm Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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8/13/2011
Hello John, You wrote:
1) "Do you have any figures for your KIS with the P-Tip?"
I have a nominal cruise speed of 135 KIAS at 2550 engine RPM with about 7 gallons of fuel consumption per hour.
2) "Would you recommend a P-Tip?"
Yes
3) "Which variety have you got; wood or carbon fibre?"
All of the Prince propellers are laminated wood, but now the customer has the choice of having the wood covered with carbon fiber or not. Back when I bought my propeller my choice was plain wood or wood covered with fiberglass. I chose fiberglass covering . More information here:
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
If I were to purchase now I'd go with the carbon fiber covering.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."
[quote]
=========================================
From: JOHN JACKSON (helixaviation(at)btinternet.com)
To: bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: VMax - KIS TR-1
OC
Thanks for your response.
Do you have any figures for your KIS with the P-Tip? I was speaking with Kieth Miller last night and he gave me some info on his IO-240 powered TR-1 with a coventional wooden prop. It would be interesting to learn what sort of speeds you get with a P-Tip.
Would you recommend a P-Tip? Which variety have you got; wood or carbon fibre?
Nothing from Alfred yet............
John
======================================
8/11/2011
Hello John, I am flying my TCM IO-240 B9B powered KIS TR-1 with a Prince P tip prop. 68 inches diameter, 69 inches pitch. Seems to be a good match, but obviously cannot perform like a variable pitch prop.
You wrote: "However, the prop designer wants to know the theoretical max straight and level speed for the aircraft at full throttle."
Since theoretical implies a number arrived at by calculation rather than measured in the air how does one calculate that number?
Alfred Prosser seemed to be pretty good at number crunching -- maybe he can answer both questions:
A) How to calculate VMax for a KIS TR-1?
B What it is for a IO-240 powered KIS TR-1?
OC
[b]
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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John,
I have a wood Sensenich 68x72 on my TR-1 with the IO-240 B1B. I get 2050 RPM static at my field elevation of 1480'. At 3000', at full throttle, it goes to 2800 RPM and IAS is 190/195 mph. Cruise at 2550 RPM is 160/165 mph. I would like more static RPM for more HP at take off. I think Prince and others have some pitch and length combinations that might be a little more optimal.
I fly in Arizona and regularly take off of airports at 5000'+ alt. with a density alt. of 7000' to 9000'. At gross weight, the initial clime is only about 400 fpm.
I thin many of us would like to have an MT adjustable prop! Money is always a consideration though.
Good luck, Tim
[quote] ---
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punchy(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Tim, Where in Az do you fly out of? I have a TR1 with a lyc 0320 and fly out of Saint Johns (KSJN) AZ.
Rob
On 8/14/2011 12:21 PM, F. Tim Yoder wrote: [quote] DIV { MARGIN: 0px } John,
I have a wood Sensenich 68x72 on my TR-1 with the IO-240 B1B. I get 2050 RPM static at my field elevation of 1480'. At 3000', at full throttle, it goes to 2800 RPM and IAS is 190/195 mph. Cruise at 2550 RPM is 160/165 mph. I would like more static RPM for more HP at take off. I think Prince and others have some pitch and length combinations that might be a little more optimal.
I fly in Arizona and regularly take off of airports at 5000'+ alt. with a density alt. of 7000' to 9000'. At gross weight, the initial clime is only about 400 fpm.
I thin many of us would like to have an MT adjustable prop! Money is always a consideration though.
Good luck, Tim
[quote] ---
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: VMax - KIS TR-1 |
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Hi Rob, I am based at Falcon Field, FFZ. There is another TR-1 here with the 0320, owned by Pete Duran. Contact me at ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com) and we can talk.
[quote] ---
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