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Chapter 8 Update

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

Chapter 8 of the Connection has been updated with the

corrected temperature rise data in the figures. For a

limited time, folks on the List can download and print

a complete replacement for Chapter 8 at:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/CH_8/Ch8_R12.pdf



Print odd pages only in reverse order, turn stack over

in printer and print even pages only to get fronts and

backs.

        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

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djones(at)northboone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

Bob



The reply claims the file is damaged and cannot be repaired. Something

special that needs to be done?



Jonesy



--

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

Hmm, works ok for me right now. Do you have the latest version of Acrobat?



-- Craig 



--

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Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

I received the same "damaged file" error when I first tried to open this,

but now it's working just fine and yes, this is with the Acrobat 7, the

latest version.



Bob McC

do not archive

---

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_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

djones(at)northboone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

Thanks for the idea. I have the 7.0.7 version. That appears to be the

current version. It still give me the file is damaged message.



Thanks

Jonsey



--

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rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

 	  Quote: 	
		   The reply claims the file is damaged and cannot be repaired. Something

 special that needs to be done?

 

 Jonesy


	


Sometimes a file can get corrupted between the server and your

PC for a variety of reasons.  The thing to do is to flush your

browser cache.  This is different depending on the browser you

use, but since there is an 80% chance you are using Microsoft

Internet Explorer, here's how you do it:



Tools/Internet Options/General/Delete Files



Also, if you are using MSIE, you may want to consider upgrading

to Mozilla's Firefox.  http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/



After flushing the cache (or installing Firefox) the transfer

will hopefully work.  If not, let me know and I'll be happy to

send it to you.



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

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_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

At 10:54 PM 6/1/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<djones(at)northboone.net>



Bob



The reply claims the file is damaged and cannot be repaired. Something

special that needs to be done?


	




   Most of the time, no . . .



   However, most operating systems have an embedded list of

   file extensions intended to tell the system what application

   is used to open which type of file. In this case, the file

   is a .pdf extension and is opened with one of Adobe's several

   viewing/editing applications for .pdf files.



   The problem arises when the combination of applications running

   in your system get the cart in front of the horse (a hazard

   of systems designed for multitasking). I believe folks are getting

   the error message you've noted because Acrobat is being prompted

   to open the file while it's still being downloaded . . . hence,

   Acrobat sees a truncated file and assumes that it's damaged.



   The 100% sure method for downloading large data files of

   any type from any site is to right-click the link and tell

   your browser where to STORE the file on your hard-drive.

   Wait until the download is complete and THEN open the

   file with the appropriate application.



   Bob . . .



      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

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Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Chapter 8 Update

Comments on Chapter 8: Wire Selection and Installation.



General comments on materials. 



The periodic table does not hide any magic conductors. Copper is the second best by volume, it is 94% as good as the best—Silver. Surprisingly, gold is not particularly good. Its magic lies elsewhere.



I have to disagree with several statements. I think these were not critically examined in the writing:



“Weight will not be greatly improved upon; the copper conductor is already the major proportion of the weight and there is simply no practical way to do with less copper with current technology”---Oh? How about higher voltages, single wire busses, fiberoptics, Copper-Clad Aluminum, etc. I am sure you meant something slightly different here….



“There is no material more economical than copper for any given wiring task.” Simply not so. I am sure you do not quite mean it Bob. Throw a couple more modifiers in there please.



Bob, you just plain ignore Copper Clad Aluminum, so I suggest taking a look at the link: 

http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires_files/Copper%20cables.pdf   (I will still send free samples to interested Aeroelectric list fans) Boeing and Airbus buy kilotons of the stuff. Its advantages may or may not be attractive to you, but ignoring it is not serving your readers.



Flexibility: The discussion of flexibility is not clear on a couple points and draws some suspect conclusions. Certainly, flexibility in an electric drill is handy, but this does not mean that the general use of finely-stranded wire is generally advantageous in DC circuits. 



Simply put—there is scant evidence that using stranded wire instead of solid gains you much except in some special cases---e.g.



1)	Flexibility, as in an electric drill cord or a welding cable.

2)	Attachment to resonant or vibrating structures. That’s why the ground strap to an engine is braided. NOT because fine stranding is more reliable.

3)	Convenience in spooling, handling, and installation. A solid wire always has bias, but it mostlydisappears in stranding. 



Note also that stranded wire has a huge surface area relative to solid. For the same cross-section, let’s say a one square inch solid conductor would have a surface area of four square inches per inch, while if it were separated into  1/12” X 144 strands would have a surface area of 48 square inches per inch. This is why stranded wire is the cat’s meow for higher frequencies that depend on skin effect for transmission. Complicated subject. 



Solid wire is easier to use in DC circuits—it terminates better, is smaller and lighter for equivalent AWG size.



To simplify—I think your thinking on stranded versus solid need rethinking a bit.



Bob says—“Copper is a very active metal.” No it isn’t. Copper, like many other useful metals forms a protective coating on its exposed surface. You can drop a copper penny in the dirt and dig it up in a thousand years and still read the date on it. Roman soldiers did the first half of this experiment for us. Stainless steel and copper are remarkably similar in corrosion resistance except that stainless steel forms a transparent coating that is NON-conductive, and looks great. Copper forms a conductive coating but looks like hell. At least if I remember my chemistry correctly.



Your description of voltage drop etc., would be improved by some nice drawings.



Note: Rivnuts were developed by B. F. Goodrich.



More later. Keep up the good work.



No one traveling on a business trip would be missed if he failed to arrive.

  - Thorstein Veblen

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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: Chapter 8 Update

At 07:30 PM 6/4/2006 -0700, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Comments on Chapter 8: Wire Selection and Installation.



General comments on materials.



The periodic table does not hide any magic conductors. Copper is the 

second best by volume, it is 94% as good as the best—Silver. 

Surprisingly, gold is not particularly good. Its magic lies elsewhere.



I have to disagree with several statements. I think these were not 

critically examined in the writing:



“Weight will not be greatly improved upon; the copper conductor is 

already the major proportion of the weight and there is simply no 

practical way to do with less copper with current technology”---Oh? How 

about higher voltages,


	




 	  Quote: 	
		    single wire busses, fiberoptics,


	


     ??? We're wiring landing lights and pitot heaters here . . .

     and the topic is DC power generation and distribution,

     not data handling.

 	  Quote: 	
		    Copper-Clad Aluminum, etc. I am sure you meant something slightly 

 different here….


	


     I meant exactly what I wrote . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  “There is no material more economical than copper for any given wiring 

task.” Simply not so. I am sure you do not quite mean it Bob. Throw a 

couple more modifiers in there please.


	


     How so? Economics is the study of scarce resources for which

     there are alternative uses. In this case, I'm speaking of $time$

     which one spends to acquire cash to buy wire when one also needs

     to spend $time$ to do many other things on the project. Except for

     the specialize case where CuC-Al offers some weight savings,

     it's still more expensive in $time$, is not as pleasant to work with

     and occupies more volume in a bundle.



     Further, opportunities for CuC-Al might be as much as 20' of

     wiring out of a total of hundreds of feet where a weight savings

     of a few pounds is possible. For all other applications expense,

     less than friendly flexibility, and miniscule weight savings are

     not, in my personal opinion, a good trade off . . . even if the

     wire was available in the smaller gages.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, you just plain ignore Copper Clad Aluminum, so I suggest taking a 

look at the link:

http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires_files/Copper%20cables.pdf  (I 

will still send free samples to interested Aeroelectric list fans) Boeing 

and Airbus buy kilotons of the stuff. Its advantages may or may not be 

attractive to you, but ignoring it is not serving your readers.


	


     Eric, you're getting your shorts in a bunch over nothing. I

     DO talk about the copper clad aluminum. I have samples you sent

     me and I show them in my seminars along with examples of soldered-

     on terminals. The attendees also get to handle a piece of CuC-Al, 

22759/16-2,

     and 2AWG welding cable. We discuss insulations, flexibility and

     a few cautions about bolting fat-wires to the lead posts on

     a small RG battery (4AWG welding cable recommended).



     Chapter 8 was updated to correct errors in the wire tables, not

     update it to the latest-and-greatest technologies. Those things will

     will be added to the text in due course. All I need is a 36-hour

     day.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Flexibility: The discussion of flexibility is not clear on a couple points 

and draws some suspect conclusions. Certainly, flexibility in an electric 

drill is handy, but this does not mean that the general use of 

finely-stranded wire is generally advantageous in DC circuits.


	


    The preference for 19+ stranding has nothing to do with DC circuits.

    19 or more strands in small wires has been the process of choice for

    resistance to vibration and flexing from other sources for a very long

    time.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Simply put—there is scant evidence that using stranded wire instead of 

solid gains you much except in some special cases---e.g.



1)      Flexibility, as in an electric drill cord or a welding cable.


	


    You are free to preach any gospel you wish. Are you suggesting that

    it's a rational decision to wire one's airplane with solid conductor

    stuff? I'm only repeating what has been practice and policy in

    aircraft for many, many years. I've worked with wire in many venues

    for a long time and the ONLY place I'd use solid wire is in my house . 

. .



 	  Quote: 	
		  2) Attachment to resonant or vibrating structures. That’s why the ground 

strap to an engine is braided. NOT because fine stranding is more reliable.


	


    ??? lost you. Does not resistance to breakage due to persistent

    motion translate into increased service life, hence 'reliability'

    for that component? And does not the whole airplane have a vibration

    signature that is greater than automobiles?



 	  Quote: 	
		  3) Convenience in spooling, handling, and installation. A solid wire 

always has bias, but it mostlydisappears in stranding.



Note also that stranded wire has a huge surface area relative to solid. 

For the same cross-section, let’s say a one square inch solid conductor 

would have a surface area of four square inches per inch, while if it were 

separated into  1/12” X 144 strands would have a surface area of 48 

square inches per inch. This is why stranded wire is the cat’s meow for 

higher frequencies that depend on skin effect for transmission. 

Complicated subject.


	


    Why even bring it up? Skin effect was never a consideration for

    wire selection in airframes. Adoption of relatively fine stranded

    wire in aircraft (and as far as I know, all military products)

    was for resistance to failure under vibration due to decreased

    stresses under vibration and higher reliability - a nick on a stranded

    wire puts a few strands at-risk, a nick on a solid wire puts the

    whole conductor at risk.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Solid wire is easier to use in DC circuits—it terminates better, is 

smaller and lighter for equivalent AWG size.


	


    You're splitting hairs (or strands) here. The weight differences

    between stranded/solid for any given gage is miniscule. Does your

    reference to "DC circuits" suggest an alternative philosophy is

    appropriate for AC circuits? Are you suggesting that readers of this

    List consider making the switch to solid wire?

 	  Quote: 	
		  To simplify—I think your thinking on stranded versus solid need 

rethinking a bit.



Bob says—“Copper is a very active metal.” No it isn’t. Copper, 

like many other useful metals forms a protective coating on its exposed 

surface. You can drop a copper penny in the dirt and dig it up in a 

thousand years and still read the date on it. Roman soldiers did the first 

half of this experiment for us. Stainless steel and copper are remarkably 

similar in corrosion resistance except that stainless steel forms a 

transparent coating that is NON-conductive, and looks great. Copper forms 

a conductive coating but looks like hell. At least if I remember my 

chemistry correctly.


	


    Forgive my imprecise speech with respect to reactivity. Keep in mind

    that we tin-coat copper to reduce effects of corrosion that folks

    fine objectionable at any level however small. Yes, copper is less

    reactive than say lithium, iron or zinc but a whole lot more reactive

    than chrome . . . I guess we need to put some numbers to "less" and

    a "whole lot more"  . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  Your description of voltage drop etc., would be improved by some nice 

drawings.


	


    Send me some sketches of what you propose. Figure 2-3 has an exemplar

    voltage drop analysis and I was assuming that the reader would recall

    the discussion when he/she advanced to Chapter 8.



    Bob . . .

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