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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:20 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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So I have a fat wire (00) running from the battery behind pilot seat, to the firewall, from whence the starter fat wire is connected on the engine side, and a 4 awg behind the firewall to the bus through a contactor.
Its a Chevy V6, so the starter contactor is built into the starter.
The fat wire is always hot at this stage, and I am looking for a solution in the form of a fuse/ fusible link near the battery so that in the event of an accident induced short, or an engaged starter hangup, that there is protection.
Best...
Bob Verwey
On 2 December 2014 at 23:53, B Tomm <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Bob,
I had done it on mine a couple years back, but the other day I was helping a hangar neighbour make some improvements. He has a rear mounted battery on a BD4 (engine in front). He has one electronic ignition which was powered by an 18 awg wire connected on the firewall at the input power terminal at the starter solenoid. This fat wire was only powered when the master solenoid (located in back next to the battery) was active. Not ideal for electrically dependant ignition. There was a spare 18 awg wire already running all the way back to the battery and the owner wanted to use that. I suggested that we fuse it but that fuse would have to activate "slower" than the breaker on the panel. I therefore suggested a fusible link and that is where I crossed the line. Since it was such a good idea, and I had suggested it, it was suggested that I do it  Not a problem since I had materials left over. Just couldn't remember if the 22awg wire (now hidden under the silicone impregnated sleeve) on my RV7 had been stripped or not. My thinking initially was that it must have been stripped because we really don't want any combustible material "inside" the fuse if possible. It didn't strip well, so I re-did it without stripping as you have confirmed. Thank you.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 11:41 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Fusible links
At 11:44 2014-12-02, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net)>
I can't find the detail in the book. When making a fusible link, the inner
"fuse" wire is 22 AWG in this case. Is it necessary to strip the insulation
off?
|
I presume you're asking about the insulation on the
22AWG wire? No, in fact, you ADD insulation over it
See http://tinyurl.com/msx5ofe
Where are you considering the use of a fusible link?
I crafted that comic-book waaayyy back when we were
wrestling with the notion of extending the BUS in a
fuse block up to a one-terminal-BUS at the input side
of the alternator field breaker. A breaker upstream
of a crow-bar ov protection module.
I think we also dabbled with the use of fusible links
on the meter-leads to a shunt. As a general rule, the
fusible link is attractive only when a fuse holder
is a little 'messy' . . . The TC fleet has used two
fuses in clips to protect ammeter wires for decades.
[img]cid:776342221(at)02122014-0CF9[/img]
The last time I was able to walk down the A36
production line (about 10 years ago) the clipped-in
fuses for various 'minor' tasks were quite visible.
The need to extend the bus to accommodate the only
circuit breaker in the airplane was a special case.
Like Figure Z-13/20, and to some extend Z-19, I've
regretted having published the ideas. While useful
and appropriate to the special cases, they've
morphed into other forms that may or may not
have been through PCQDR (preliminary, critical
and qualification design review).
Can or should we talk about it?
Bob . . .
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:50 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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Bob,
If you don’t want to run your starter through the master contractor, I suggest you use a device like this. A location closer to the battery is better. A cable can be used in place of the push tube if you need.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Flaming+River/898/FR1003-2/10002/-1
During a run-on or stuck starter situation, it will take a while for the fusable link to burn through. This switch will also allow you to shut off the power to the starter any time you don’t need it, such as the aircraft sitting on the ground or while doing maintenance. The last thing you want is to be working on the engine and accidentally short out the contacts of the starter and have that prop come swinging through. If you are doing maintenance on the starter itself, I would still disconnect the battery from the starter cable.
Hope this helps.
Justin
| Quote: | On Dec 3, 2014, at 11:19 PM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
So I have a fat wire (00) running from the battery behind pilot seat, to the firewall, from whence the starter fat wire is connected on the engine side, and a 4 awg behind the firewall to the bus through a contactor.
Its a Chevy V6, so the starter contactor is built into the starter.
The fat wire is always hot at this stage, and I am looking for a solution in the form of a fuse/ fusible link near the battery so that in the event of an accident induced short, or an engaged starter hangup, that there is protection.
Best...Bob Verwey
On 2 December 2014 at 23:53, B Tomm <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net)> wrote: | Quote: | Thanks Bob,
I had done it on mine a couple years back, but the other day I was helping a hangar neighbour make some improvements. He has a rear mounted battery on a BD4 (engine in front). He has one electronic ignition which was powered by an 18 awg wire connected on the firewall at the input power terminal at the starter solenoid. This fat wire was only powered when the master solenoid (located in back next to the battery) was active. Not ideal for electrically dependant ignition. There was a spare 18 awg wire already running all the way back to the battery and the owner wanted to use that. I suggested that we fuse it but that fuse would have to activate "slower" than the breaker on the panel. I therefore suggested a fusible link and that is where I crossed the line. Since it was such a good idea, and I had suggested it, it was suggested that I do it Not a problem since I had materials left over. Just couldn't remember if the 22awg wire (now hidden under the silicone impregnated sleeve) on my RV7 had been stripped or not. My thinking initially was that it must have been stripped because we really don't want any combustible material "inside" the fuse if possible. It didn't strip well, so I re-did it without stripping as you have confirmed. Thank you.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, IIISent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 11:41 AMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Re: Fusible links
At 11:44 2014-12-02, you wrote: | Quote: | | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net)>I can't find the detail in the book. When making a fusible link, the inner"fuse" wire is 22 AWG in this case. Is it necessary to strip the insulationoff? |
I presume you're asking about the insulation on the 22AWG wire? No, in fact, you ADD insulation over it See http://tinyurl.com/msx5ofe Where are you considering the use of a fusible link? I crafted that comic-book waaayyy back when we were wrestling with the notion of extending the BUS in a fuse block up to a one-terminal-BUS at the input side of the alternator field breaker. A breaker upstream of a crow-bar ov protection module. I think we also dabbled with the use of fusible links on the meter-leads to a shunt. As a general rule, the fusible link is attractive only when a fuse holder is a little 'messy' . . . The TC fleet has used two fuses in clips to protect ammeter wires for decades.<400400db.jpg> The last time I was able to walk down the A36 production line (about 10 years ago) the clipped-in fuses for various 'minor' tasks were quite visible. The need to extend the bus to accommodate the only circuit breaker in the airplane was a special case. Like Figure Z-13/20, and to some extend Z-19, I've regretted having published the ideas. While useful and appropriate to the special cases, they've morphed into other forms that may or may not have been through PCQDR (preliminary, critical and qualification design review). Can or should we talk about it?
Bob . . .
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:25 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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Thanks Justin,
I have a very similar device lying on the shelf in my shop, used in boating
applications.
I guess I was just looking for some re-assurance that it is a good solution
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:42 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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It would be a lot cheaper, lighter, and easier to just put a regular starter solenoid in series with the heavy starter wire at the source. The same control signal can activate the solenoid and the 'trigger' terminal on the starter itself. We had a similar discussion here a few months ago, and I think there's an example in the book. IIRC, the B&C starters are controlled this way.
Charlie
On 12/4/2014 3:24 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
[quote] Thanks Justin,
I have a very similar device lying on the shelf in my shop, used in boating applications.
I guess I was just looking for some re-assurance that it is a good solution.
Thanks!
Best...
Bob Verwey
On 4 December 2014 at 10:49, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Bob,
If you don’t want to run your starter through the master contractor, I suggest you use a device like this. A location closer to the battery is better. A cable can be used in place of the push tube if you need.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Flaming+River/898/FR1003-2/10002/-1
During a run-on or stuck starter situation, it will take a while for the fusable link to burn through. This switch will also allow you to shut off the power to the starter any time you don’t need it, such as the aircraft sitting on the ground or while doing maintenance. The last thing you want is to be working on the engine and accidentally short out the contacts of the starter and have that prop come swinging through. If you are doing maintenance on the starter itself, I would still disconnect the battery from the starter cable.
Hope this helps.
Justin
| Quote: | On Dec 3, 2014, at 11:19 PM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
So I have a fat wire (00) running from the battery behind pilot seat, to the firewall, from whence the starter fat wire is connected on the engine side, and a 4 awg behind the firewall to the bus through a contactor.
Its a Chevy V6, so the starter contactor is built into the starter.
The fat wire is always hot at this stage, and I am looking for a solution in the form of a fuse/ fusible link near the battery so that in the event of an accident induced short, or an engaged starter hangup, that there is protection.
Best...
Bob Verwey
On 2 December 2014 at 23:53, B Tomm <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Bob,
I had done it on mine a couple years back, but the other day I was helping a hangar neighbour make some improvements. He has a rear mounted battery on a BD4 (engine in front). He has one electronic ignition which was powered by an 18 awg wire connected on the firewall at the input power terminal at the starter solenoid. This fat wire was only powered when the master solenoid (located in back next to the battery) was active. Not ideal for electrically dependant ignition. There was a spare 18 awg wire already running all the way back to the battery and the owner wanted to use that. I suggested that we fuse it but that fuse would have to activate "slower" than the breaker on the panel. I therefore suggested a fusible link and that is where I crossed the line. Since it was such a good idea, and I had suggested it, it was suggested that I do it Not a problem since I had materials left over. Just couldn't remember if the 22awg wire (now hidden under the silicone impregnated sleeve) on my RV7 had been stripped or not. My thinking initially was that it must have been stripped because we really don't want any combustible material "inside" the fuse if possible. It didn't strip well, so I re-did it without stripping as you have confirmed. Thank you.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 11:41 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Fusible links
At 11:44 2014-12-02, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net (fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net)>
I can't find the detail in the book. When making a fusible link, the inner
"fuse" wire is 22 AWG in this case. Is it necessary to strip the insulation
off?
|
I presume you're asking about the insulation on the
22AWG wire? No, in fact, you ADD insulation over it
See http://tinyurl.com/msx5ofe
Where are you considering the use of a fusible link?
I crafted that comic-book waaayyy back when we were
wrestling with the notion of extending the BUS in a
fuse block up to a one-terminal-BUS at the input side
of the alternator field breaker. A breaker upstream
of a crow-bar ov protection module.
I think we also dabbled with the use of fusible links
on the meter-leads to a shunt. As a general rule, the
fusible link is attractive only when a fuse holder
is a little 'messy' . . . The TC fleet has used two
fuses in clips to protect ammeter wires for decades.
<400400db.jpg>
The last time I was able to walk down the A36
production line (about 10 years ago) the clipped-in
fuses for various 'minor' tasks were quite visible.
The need to extend the bus to accommodate the only
circuit breaker in the airplane was a special case.
Like Figure Z-13/20, and to some extend Z-19, I've
regretted having published the ideas. While useful
and appropriate to the special cases, they've
morphed into other forms that may or may not
have been through PCQDR (preliminary, critical
and qualification design review).
Can or should we talk about it?
|
|
|
[b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:59 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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At 02:19 2014-12-04, you wrote:
| Quote: | So I have a fat wire (00) running from the battery behind pilot
seat, to the firewall, from whence the starter fat wire is connected
on the engine side, and a 4 awg behind the firewall to the bus
through a contactor.
|
You mean that your battery contactor is not
mounted adjacent to the battery?
Bob . . .
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:09 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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Correct Bob N, I have only a 70amp relay to feed the bus.
[img]cid:ii_14a299527e8e76da[/img]
Best...
Bob Verwey
On 4 December 2014 at 17:58, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 02:19 2014-12-04, you wrote:
| Quote: | So I have a fat wire (00) running from the battery behind pilot seat, to the firewall, from whence the starter fat wire is connected on the engine side, and a 4 awg behind the firewall to the bus through a contactor.
|
You mean that your battery contactor is not
mounted adjacent to the battery?
Bob . . .
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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:12 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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BobV,
The rule of thumb is to keep the fat wires that are bolted directly to B+ as short as possible. My personal rule is less than 18 inches.
Is there a reason not to add a traditional start solenoid right at the battery? In your case is may be redundant but it keeps the un-protected feeder length short. You would have to move the master relay to that position also - so that's another few feet of #4. This is probably less expensive than the manual disconnect & it keeps the big starter cable inert except during cranking.
-Jeff
On Monday, December 8, 2014 3:25 AM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Correct Bob N, I have only a 70amp relay to feed the bus.
[img]cid:1.1122344123(at)web184901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com[/img]
Best...
Bob Verwey
On 4 December 2014 at 17:58, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 02:19 2014-12-04, you wrote:
| Quote: | So I have a fat wire (00) running from the battery behind pilot seat, to the firewall, from whence the starter fat wire is connected on the engine side, and a 4 awg behind the firewall to the bus through a contactor.
|
You mean that your battery contactor is not
mounted adjacent to the battery?
Bob . . .
====================================
br> fts!)
r> > /www.aeroelectric.com" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
w.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
p.com" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
e.com" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====================================
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:56 am Post subject: Fusible links NOW VARIATION ON A THEME |
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At 05:08 2014-12-08, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Correct Bob N, I have only a 70amp relay to feed the bus. |
Oh yeah, I seem to recall this condition from an
earlier thread . . . one of the 70A rated plastic
relays with fast-on tabs?
You're probably aware of the variances in your
system when compared with the legacy design
philosophies harvested from the TC aircraft world.
One of those ideas goes toward making ship's wiring
max-cold when crew operated controls are placed
at OFF. This generally calls for placing disconnects
in major conductors (meaning protected at more than 5A)
as close to the source as practical. Hence the oft repeated
picture below (Cessna 150 1962 and before) where
we see the battery contactor mounted right on the
battery box.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
If your design goals dictate alternate configurations
for managing power in your major wires, then it's
a good thing to take a mental expedition through
the woods and briar patches of Failure Modes Effects
Analysis. If you're considering fault protection for
any conductor, fat wires, bus feeders, wires of any
size . . . consider all the circumstances under which
that circuit protection might be expected to operate.
Two conditions which are high on the list in the TC
aircraft world call for minimizing risk for post-crash
fire -AND- making sure that some mechanic doesn't swing
a wrench against an always hot fat-feeder terminal
when he/she erroneously believes that ship's wiring
is max-cold.
A guy I worked with right out high school was under
a oil-patch truck routing cables for a two-way radio
we were installing. I was working in the cab and
stuffing a wire down through a grommet that he
was going to attach to the starter contactor.
At some point I heard this loud yell followed
by his wristwatch flying out from under the truck
in a smoking trajectory that hit the wall. Seems he'd
forgotten one if his check-list items for disconnecting
battery ground cable before starting the job. Burned him
pretty bad . . . destroyed a new watch he was really
proud of. Unfortunately, oil patch trucks don't have
battery contactors.
The point is, if you choose to do something different,
please think through the hazards and then be aware
of them as part of the risk management for the
use and maintenance of your airplane.
Speaking of battery contactors . . .
[/b] A couple weeks ago I expressed some skepticism
for a statement from SkyTec literature asserting
that Cessna's starter contactors were of the
continuous duty type and therefore, ill suited
to the task.
I didn't start there until '64 and the first
couple of years were spent learning to write, illustrate
and publish accessory kits for radio installations.
The electrical group was right across the isle
from me and we had a lot of conversation but
I was oblivious to many details of the electrical
systems both present and historical.
So, I've been digging up service and parts catalogs
on the older Cessnas. The image above was captured
from a 1962 and prior service manual were we're
shown a Cutler-Hammer 6041 style contactor used
as a battery contactor. I'm discovering that the
wine-barrel RBM controls devices familiar to me
came along sometime in the early/mid 60's. The
oldest airplane I've flown fitted with an electrical
system was a '46 120-1/2 . . . the system was
added after it left the factory . . . I think
it had a wine-barrel battery contactor. Didn't
need a starter contactor (had cockpit pull-
handle, mechanical engagement).
All of the catalog/service data I've gathered
so far calls out Cessna source control drawings
for all contactors . . . so I'm not yet privy
to manufacturer's source data. I'm compiling a
list of source control numbers. Next time I'm
inside the hallowed halls of Textron, I'll put
the microscope to SkyTec's somewhat startling
assertions. When I began writing narratives
for the service manuals, I'm recalling that there
were distinctions made between battery (continuous)
and starter (intermittent) duty wine-barrel
contactors. I'll go find out . . .
Bob . . .
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