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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:56 am Post subject: unusable fuel |
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Could someone please tell me what the proper attitude of an XS Mono is when determining the amount of “unusable fuel” on board?
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: unusable fuel |
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Fred,
I'd recommend takeoff & climb out attitude as that would be the most critical and when you'd be most likely to uncover the tank outlet.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 24, 2017, at 09:55, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:
Could someone please tell me what the proper attitude of an XS Mono is when determining the amount of “unusable fuel” on board?
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:31 am Post subject: unusable fuel |
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Fred/Bob, That's an entirely reasonable approach since the front end fuel outlets make it the most critical attitude. However it only really applies to those who would contemplate seeing if they can take off with +/- empty tanks. It seems to me much more practicable to go with the cruise attitude, where I guess 99% of fuel starvation happens. So door sill level would be my recommendation.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-24 18:34, Robert Borger wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>
Fred,
I'd recommend takeoff & climb out attitude as that would be the most critical and when you'd be most likely to uncover the tank outlet.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 24, 2017, at 09:55, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>
Could someone please tell me what the proper attitude of an XS Mono is when determining the amount of "unusable fuel" on board?
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:21 pm Post subject: unusable fuel |
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David,
Will that be enough petrol on board if you are on short final at an uncontrolled field and someone pulls out onto the runway and you have to go around?
Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 14:15, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Fred/Bob, That's an entirely reasonable approach since the front end fuel outlets make it the most critical attitude. However it only really applies to those who would contemplate seeing if they can take off with +/- empty tanks. It seems to me much more practicable to go with the cruise attitude, where I guess 99% of fuel starvation happens. So door sill level would be my recommendation.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-24 18:34, Robert Borger wrote:
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: unusable fuel |
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My reason for raising the question is to select an attitude, after which, I will drain the “usable” fuel and proceed w/ my weighing to determine C of G.
I’m surprised to find well-reasoned yet differing opinions on this.
Fred
| Quote: | On Aug 24, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
David,
Will that be enough petrol on board if you are on short final at an uncontrolled field and someone pulls out onto the runway and you have to go around?Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 14:15, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Fred/Bob, That's an entirely reasonable approach since the front end fuel outlets make it the most critical attitude. However it only really applies to those who would contemplate seeing if they can take off with +/- empty tanks. It seems to me much more practicable to go with the cruise attitude, where I guess 99% of fuel starvation happens. So door sill level would be my recommendation.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-24 18:34, Robert Borger wrote:
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Dave Disney
Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 54
Location: Weston-Super-Mare
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: unusable fuel |
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Imho, use the worst case, if pickups are up front then use climb attitude, if extended to rear of tank, then descending attitude 
Cheers,
Pete
A239
[quote] On Aug 24, 2017, at 4:39 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:
My reason for raising the question is to select an attitude, after which, I will drain the “usable” fuel and proceed w/ my weighing to determine C of G.
I’m surprised to find well-reasoned yet differing opinions on this
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: unusable fuel |
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Whether in level attitude or cruise climb, I suspect the difference
in undrainable fuel will be small, based on the square area of the
bottom of the tanks, the fore-aft length of the tanks at the bottom
and, fact that the cg is not far from the tank, and the likely rise
in the front of the tank bottom with such a change in attitude.
Just my opinion.
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: unusable fuel |
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Bob, No of course not but I do not plan to ever be on final with anything like an empty tank! It seems to me there are two very different things here - unusable fuel and how anyone sensibly manages his fuel. Unusable fuel is pretty much what it says on the label and this side of the pond its only practical consequence was that the LAA want a figure for it and want it included in the 'ready for service' or empty weight. That apart I am all in favour of gauges telling the true figure of what fuel you have in the tank. Very few would want to work out in flight how much fuel is actually useable or not. We all surely always operate with sensible reserves. In fact a fair number of my aquaintances have never had to use the reserve tank and are rightly proud of themselves. In addition the large majority of my take offs and probably those of my friends are with a full tank - this partly because much of my flying is touring, doing longish stints, but also because I still have a lingering memory of being taught that you should always fill the tank before putting the plane away so as to discourage air cooling in the tank and depositing small amounts of water.
Regards, David
On 2017-08-24 21:21, Robert Borger wrote: | Quote: | David,
Will that be enough petrol on board if you are on short final at an uncontrolled field and someone pulls out onto the runway and you have to go around? Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 14:15, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Fred/Bob, That's an entirely reasonable approach since the front end fuel outlets make it the most critical attitude. However it only really applies to those who would contemplate seeing if they can take off with +/- empty tanks. It seems to me much more practicable to go with the cruise attitude, where I guess 99% of fuel starvation happens. So door sill level would be my recommendation.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-24 18:34, Robert Borger wrote:
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:45 pm Post subject: unusable fuel |
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PS. I wouldn't expect you to take EASA too seriously, but for what it is worth I have just checked their CS-VLA 959, which holds forth on the subject of unusable fuel, and it says it must be checked for each tank in the most adverse conditions likely to be encountered, so the EU is on your side! David
On 2017-08-24 23:22, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote: | Quote: |
Bob, No of course not but I do not plan to ever be on final with anything like an empty tank! It seems to me there are two very different things here - unusable fuel and how anyone sensibly manages his fuel. Unusable fuel is pretty much what it says on the label and this side of the pond its only practical consequence was that the LAA want a figure for it and want it included in the 'ready for service' or empty weight. That apart I am all in favour of gauges telling the true figure of what fuel you have in the tank. Very few would want to work out in flight how much fuel is actually useable or not. We all surely always operate with sensible reserves. In fact a fair number of my aquaintances have never had to use the reserve tank and are rightly proud of themselves. In addition the large majority of my take offs and probably those of my friends are with a full tank - this partly because much of my flying is touring, doing longish stints, but also because I still have a lingering memory of being taught that you should always fill the tank before putting the plane away so as to discourage air cooling in the tank and depositing small amounts of water.
Regards, David
On 2017-08-24 21:21, Robert Borger wrote: | Quote: | David,
Will that be enough petrol on board if you are on short final at an uncontrolled field and someone pulls out onto the runway and you have to go around? Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 14:15, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Fred/Bob, That's an entirely reasonable approach since the front end fuel outlets make it the most critical attitude. However it only really applies to those who would contemplate seeing if they can take off with +/- empty tanks. It seems to me much more practicable to go with the cruise attitude, where I guess 99% of fuel starvation happens. So door sill level would be my recommendation.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-24 18:34, Robert Borger wrote:
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:04 pm Post subject: unusable fuel |
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David,
It's the same for the FAA, most adverse condition.
Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 17:45, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
PS. I wouldn't expect you to take EASA too seriously, but for what it is worth I have just checked their CS-VLA 959, which holds forth on the subject of unusable fuel, and it says it must be checked for each tank in the most adverse conditions likely to be encountered, so the EU is on your side! David
On 2017-08-24 23:22, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote: | Quote: |
Bob, No of course not but I do not plan to ever be on final with anything like an empty tank! It seems to me there are two very different things here - unusable fuel and how anyone sensibly manages his fuel. Unusable fuel is pretty much what it says on the label and this side of the pond its only practical consequence was that the LAA want a figure for it and want it included in the 'ready for service' or empty weight. That apart I am all in favour of gauges telling the true figure of what fuel you have in the tank. Very few would want to work out in flight how much fuel is actually useable or not. We all surely always operate with sensible reserves. In fact a fair number of my aquaintances have never had to use the reserve tank and are rightly proud of themselves. In addition the large majority of my take offs and probably those of my friends are with a full tank - this partly because much of my flying is touring, doing longish stints, but also because I still have a lingering memory of being taught that you should always fill the tank before putting the plane away so as to discourage air cooling in the tank and depositing small amounts of water.
Regards, David
On 2017-08-24 21:21, Robert Borger wrote: | Quote: | David,
Will that be enough petrol on board if you are on short final at an uncontrolled field and someone pulls out onto the runway and you have to go around?
Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 14:15, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Fred/Bob, That's an entirely reasonable approach since the front end fuel outlets make it the most critical attitude. However it only really applies to those who would contemplate seeing if they can take off with +/- empty tanks. It seems to me much more practicable to go with the cruise attitude, where I guess 99% of fuel starvation happens. So door sill level would be my recommendation.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-24 18:34, Robert Borger wrote:
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: unusable fuel |
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Wouldn’t the normal attitude of the mono, sitting on it’s main gear & tail wheel, approximate the “most adverse condition”?
Why not drain the tank w/ acft in that position and be done w/ it?
F.
| Quote: | On Aug 24, 2017, at 4:04 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
David,
It's the same for the FAA, most adverse condition. Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 17:45, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
PS. I wouldn't expect you to take EASA too seriously, but for what it is worth I have just checked their CS-VLA 959, which holds forth on the subject of unusable fuel, and it says it must be checked for each tank in the most adverse conditions likely to be encountered, so the EU is on your side! David
On 2017-08-24 23:22, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote: | Quote: |
Bob, No of course not but I do not plan to ever be on final with anything like an empty tank! It seems to me there are two very different things here - unusable fuel and how anyone sensibly manages his fuel. Unusable fuel is pretty much what it says on the label and this side of the pond its only practical consequence was that the LAA want a figure for it and want it included in the 'ready for service' or empty weight. That apart I am all in favour of gauges telling the true figure of what fuel you have in the tank. Very few would want to work out in flight how much fuel is actually useable or not. We all surely always operate with sensible reserves. In fact a fair number of my aquaintances have never had to use the reserve tank and are rightly proud of themselves. In addition the large majority of my take offs and probably those of my friends are with a full tank - this partly because much of my flying is touring, doing longish stints, but also because I still have a lingering memory of being taught that you should always fill the tank before putting the plane away so as to discourage air cooling in the tank and depositing small amounts of water.
Regards, David
On 2017-08-24 21:21, Robert Borger wrote: | Quote: | David,
Will that be enough petrol on board if you are on short final at an uncontrolled field and someone pulls out onto the runway and you have to go around? Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2017, at 14:15, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Fred/Bob, That's an entirely reasonable approach since the front end fuel outlets make it the most critical attitude. However it only really applies to those who would contemplate seeing if they can take off with +/- empty tanks. It seems to me much more practicable to go with the cruise attitude, where I guess 99% of fuel starvation happens. So door sill level would be my recommendation.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-24 18:34, Robert Borger wrote:
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AirEupora
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:36 am Post subject: Re: unusable fuel |
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please read FAA AC90-89A http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/D08FA9393154B636862569BA006F6D7F
Section 11, Para. 1 ,e Fuel Flow and Unusable Fuel Check. The whole AC is worth reading and as an EAA Technical Counselor for both Flight & Building I ask everybody to read it before first flight. After a number of accidents and incidents in this area I starting giving a class on first flight to the local EAA chapters. The EAA also has a book that can be downloaded.
I have attached two pictures of my plane undergoing the fuel test and unusable fuel test.
I timed the time it took for the fuel to fill the five gallon bucket then when it quit running cap the line and measure the remaining fuel. If you notice the angle was about 16 degrees or flare attitude. I think mine was about 1.5 gallons remaining.
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AirEupora
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:45 am Post subject: Re: unusable fuel |
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Should have check the FAA web site before posting! AC-90-89B is current now.
Section 11, Para 1-19, e Fuel Flow (2) for unusable fuel
Hope this helps.
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