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Rectifier-Regulator 91X
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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Hi guys



Has anyone :



Bought/acquired a rectifier-regulator (RR) in the last year



AND



Fitted it



AND



has an analogue ammeter



AND



used the plane

This could be a replacement RR or the original supplied

with the engine.

Does your ammeter oscillate above 4600 rpm ? If so how

much ? (at 4600 and at 5700)



Whether it does oscillate or not I would appreciate

knowing the date it was made. (It is stamped on the RR

case in the form 0105 for January 2005.



TIA



Richard Holder

G-OWWW High Cross

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

No, but I would be interested to hear if you are having problems with the  regulator.  I have an indicated nil charge and (referring to the wiring  diagram) have only 5 connections to attach to the 6 spade connectors on the  regulator. Much investigation has failed to find the missing wire.

  

 Has anyone come across this strange anomaly?

  

 Patrick

Brian Davies

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Patrick,

  

 My Europa wiring diagram  (issue 4) for the Rotax 912 shows 6 wires connected to the regulator.  The  two alternator wires go on Gand G.    R, +B, and C are  effectively joined together and form the regulated supply lead to the busbar.  The alternator warning light is across C and L.  Which wire are you  missing?  

  

 Brian  Davies 



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  BEBERRY(at)aol.com

Sent: 13 July 2006 21:58

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Europa-List:  Rectifier-Regulator 91X

 

 No, but I would be interested to hear if you are having problems with the  regulator.  I have an indicated nil charge and (referring to the wiring  diagram) have only 5 connections to attach to the 6 spade connectors on the  regulator. Much investigation has failed to find the missing wire.

  

 Has anyone come across this strange anomaly?

  

 Patrick



 

--

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free  Date:  12/07/2006

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Brian - yes I know which wires (from the alt) go to G and G (presumably  generator, ) and the two, I think judging by the wire gauge, to R and +B.   I seem to be missing the one which connects to L and I also have only one 20  gauge wire connecting to C and not two (20 and 14) as per the wiring  diagram.

  

 Any ideas? Thanks for your interest.

  

 Patrick

Brian Davies

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:18 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Patrick,

  

 Looking at the Rotax  installation manual Fig 29, page 17-1 (for the 912S) it shows a slightly  different way of wiring up the regulator and appears to show only one wire on  terminal C.  This should, however, be 14 gauge.  The warning light is  connected remote from the regulator terminal but ends up the same as the Europa  diagram.  In other words the warning light is still connected across  terminals L and C, just achieved in another part of the circuit.  Having  the warning light circuit missing should not stop the regulator from working (I  think!).  There is, however a specific warning note in the Rotax manual  which says "Do not interupt the circuit between Terminal C and +B of the  rectifier- regulator during engine running as other wise the charging will  stop.

  

 If you have no connection  between B+ and C you will get no charging- I think this is what you are  describing.  If so, simply putting a jumper lead between the two terminals  might fix your problem. Once it is charging, you can find out if the warning  light circuit is working.

  

 Hope this  helps

  

 Brian



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  BEBERRY(at)aol.com

Sent: 14 July 2006 09:20

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Europa-List:  Rectifier-Regulator 91X

 

 Brian - yes I know which wires (from the alt) go to G and G (presumably  generator, ) and the two, I think judging by the wire gauge, to R and +B.   I seem to be missing the one which connects to L and I also have only one 20  gauge wire connecting to C and not two (20 and 14) as per the wiring  diagram.

  

 Any ideas? Thanks for your interest.

  

 Patrick



 

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No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free  Date:  12/07/2006

flyinggpa(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Richard

  

 I had a concern regarding my regulator. I bought a new unit from Lockwood  and temporally installed it yesterday. 

  

 I was worried that the charge voltage was too low. It read 13.5  volts when the load was about 4 amps. The new regulator was  exactly the same. 

  

 Your concern of voltage fluctuation was not observed on either of my  regulators. They did very .2 volts with the landing lights turn on, but I  expected that. 

 

Cliff Shaw

1041 Euclid ave.

Edmonds, WA 98020

425 776  5555

http://www.europaowners.org/WileE

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Cliff Shaw a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Richard

  

 I had a concern regarding my regulator. I bought a new unit from 

 Lockwood and temporally installed it yesterday.

  

 I was worried that the charge voltage was too low. It read 13.5 

 volts when the load was about 4 amps. The new regulator was exactly 

 the same.

  

 Your concern of voltage fluctuation was not observed on either of my 

 regulators. They did very .2 volts with the landing lights turn on, 

 but I expected that.




	


Gentlemen,



Maybe the small study we conducted on the Rotax regulator could be of 

interest :



http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php



We found that the regulated voltage was around 13.5-13.8 V, quite in 

accordance with the recent postings.

Also the B+ and R pins are internally connected. Remember that the case 

must be suitably grounded, with a connection capable of at least 20 amps.



The key to achieving acceptable service life with the Rotax unit, is 

cooling and low current draw. In my opinion, drawing more than a dozen 

amps continuous is unwise and may lead to premature failure.



BTW, the G letters stand for "Giallo" (yellow), R for "Rosso".



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Gilles, I am having problems connecting up my regulator as I have only 5  possible wires  - not the 6 as shown on the wiring diagram.  However,  if R+ and B are internally connected and therefore common, why does the diagram  show separate connections?

  

 Help!  

  

 Patrick

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Gilles,



Did your friend who did the testing ever come up with a more robust design ?



Paul



--

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Cliff Shaw wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I had a concern regarding my regulator. I bought a new

 unit from Lockwood and temporally installed it

 yesterday.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I was worried that the charge voltage was too low. It

 read 13.5 volts when the load was about 4 amps. The new

 regulator was exactly the same.

 

 Your concern of voltage fluctuation was not observed on

 either of my regulators. They did very .2 volts with

 the landing lights turn on, but I expected that.


	


Cliff



It would appear to me that the latest regulators (RRs) do

not put out a decent voltage until they are run at higher

engine rpm.



However my concern is not a visible voltage fluctuation.

The battery is a fine "damper" mechanism to remove any

visible fluctuations of voltage.



What I am getting is a visible current fluctuation, which

I believe is _caused_ by a less visible voltage fluctuation.



My ammeter (which is analog) shows this oscillation. It

would not show up on any digital readouts.



In addition I note that the cruising voltage seems to be

higher than it was before (14.1 v rather than 13.8 v). Not

significantly. And of course the VDO guages do not give

exact readings, but there is an apparent difference

between the old and new voltage.



So far I have tried a total of 4 new RRs (two from

Lockwood and two from the UK suppliers). They ALL

fluctuate in this way on my aircraft (and with one of

them) on another Europa.



I have tried three other RRs, made much earlier and they

do not fluctuate on my aircraft or on the aircraft they

came from.



Although it seems incredible, the logical deduction is

that there is a faulty batch or that the design has been

changed. The UK suppliers are on the case. They have been

informed of the tests and the results and they are

pressing Rotax in Austria for a further test and a

response. I await their reply. (It won't be swift !)



The RRs that work OK are date stamped (approx) Jan 01 and

Jan 02. The third was so old it had black goo in the back

rather than green goo.



Of the four which fluctuate the two from Lockwood were

dated Oct 05, and the two from the UK supplier were dated

Jan 06.

Paul McAllister said



 	  Quote: 	
		   Did your friend who did the testing ever come up with a

 more robust design ?


	




I am sure that this may be the way to go. I did find

details of another design from someone in Finland. Or

maybe it was Denmark or even Norway. The .pdf had lots of

letter oscar with a line through it !



Steen Gruby. I chased through Google and wrote him an

email but didn't hear anything back.



Does anyone else know the name ?



Richard

G-OWWW High Cross

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Gilles,



 Did your friend who did the testing ever come up with a more robust design ?

   


	


Paul,



At the time of the study, I had been given a Schicke GR4 regulator, by 

someone who said "you'll see, it works fine".

We made a comparative study of the Rotax and the Schicke, and we came to 

the conclusion that the Schicke was perfectly up to the task. Besides, 

its regulated voltage was in the 13.8-14.2 V range, and the current 

"cleaner" that that of the Rotax.

So I decided to install the Schicke, and the idea of designing a new 

unit was "put on the back burner".

Jerome proposed the project to a group of students, but in spite of 

considerable work, they did not produce a workable regulator.



Regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

BEBERRY(at)aol.com a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Gilles, I am having problems connecting up my regulator as I have only 

 5 possible wires  - not the 6 as shown on the wiring diagram.  

 However, if R+ and B are internally connected and therefore common, 

 why does the diagram show separate connections?

  

 Help! 

  

 Patrick

Patrick,
	




Not sure if your "missing wires" are the regulator terminals (you should 

have the regular Ducati/Rotax connector), or the wires in your plane.

I was not particularly impressed by the Rotax proposed schematic. It 

would be OK for a 912 or 912S, but in my opinion, it would lack 

redundancy for the electrically dependant 914.

I designed a variation on the Z16 figure in the Aeroelectric Connection 

Appendix Z.



I don't really know what Europa recommends, but many kit manufacturers 

suggest a variant of the Rotax schematics. It would be interesting to 

have a look at the Europa circuit.

As for the questions, he who provides the drawing should be able to 

answer any questions, and justify any particularity of his design.



But do not ask too much : most of the kit manufacturers I know of are 

lousy electricians 

Regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

According to Lockwood, cooling is not a bad idea. If you cool RR and ask

more than 12 amps for a long time, you will cook the windings on the

generator.



OK here's a question, how could the Rotax charging circuit be modified

limit max. output to 12 amps?



Ron Parigoris

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Hi Ron and all,



 	  Quote: 	
		    ask

 more than 12 amps for a long time, you will cook the windings on the

 generator.

   

We treated the Rotax PM alternator VERY bad, and I can assure you the 
	


windings are bullet proof up to the design 20 amps, for very long 

periods of use.

It is still well and alive (seen the thermal images ?) in spite of the 

abuse we imposed on it.



The weak link in the system is the Rotax regulator. The more you ask 

from it, the more it heats up, until it finally fries long before 

reaching the advertised continuous  current.

 	  Quote: 	
		   OK here's a question, how could the Rotax charging circuit be modified

 limit max. output to 12 amps?

   

No need : you just load it under 12 amp continuous.
	


In our setup, the max continuous load (day VFR) is under 10 amp, and our 

Schicke (rated at about 16 amps) never exceeds 40°C, according to my 

little temperature sticker.



Regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Giles & Europaphiles:



Thanks for your information regarding the Schicke Regulator.  I have  

visited the Schicke web site.  They appear to be up to version GR-6  

on their regulator.  The specifications and wiring diagram are  

essentially the same as the GR-4.  It looks like it would be a  

suitable replacement for the Ducati unit.



The big question is:  How do I get one here in the US?



Herr Schicke has a very serious disclaimer at the bottom of his page  

stating:  "Ein Export der Geräte in die Vereinigten Staaten von  

Amerika ist ohne schriftliche Einwilligung vonSchicke electronic  

nicht zulässig"  This translates loosely as: "Export of the devices  

into the United States of America without written consent of Schicke  

Electronic is illegal!"



Does anyone out there in Europa Land or Electronics Land know of a  

source for the Shcicke GR-6 in North America?



Good building and great flying,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL

(85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch  

system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in,  

Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar  

in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done.  Baggage bay in.  Working in - 24  

Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel  

System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing.  Airmaster  

arrived 29 Sep 05.  Seat arrived from Oregon Aero.  Preparing ROTAX  

914 for installation.

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117

hurstkr(at)growzone.com.a
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Gentlemen,



I have been told the voltage regulator seen at

http://www.powermate.com.au/

is good.  I haven't got one myself (YET) but if I have any trouble with

the Rotax supplied unit I will be very tempted to try one of these.



I questioned the designer about the output being only 8 amps but he

assured me it will run everything I have in my aircraft.  He has a

Slepcev Storch himself and he listed all the items he has in it which

exceeded my demands.  Don't know him personally but found he responds to

queries ok.



Cheers

Kingsley

europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Where do folk mount the RR to maximise cooling?



Paul

G-GIDY

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

My RR is on the firewall inside the box which surrounds the Turbo Control  unit (914),.  This box has a 2" cooling pipe leading to it.

  

 I am not sure that this position is ideal and it is certainly horribly  inconvenient for access and maintenance.  A ny better suggestions would be  welcome.

  

 Patrick

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:08 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

BEBERRY(at)aol.com a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   My RR is on the firewall inside the box which surrounds the Turbo 

 Control unit (914),.  This box has a 2" cooling pipe leading to it.

  

 I am not sure that this position is ideal and it is certainly horribly 

 inconvenient for access and maintenance.  A ny better suggestions 

 would be welcome.

  

 Patrick

Hi Patrick,
	




Our units are on the cabin side of the firewall for cooler environment. 

No overheating problem. To date no maintenance, except for monitoring 

the temperature sticker on the regulator.

Why did you put them in a box ?



Regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: Rectifier-Regulator 91X

Gilles I bought the aeroplane nearly built (owner and builder had a brain  tumour) so had no control over some aspects but could make alterations if you  think inside firewall would be better. (this is not a Eurpoa  recommendation) 

  

 Patrick

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