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Clarify Z101

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bcone1381

Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:23 am Post subject: Clarify Z101

1) Clarify for me why the Z101 Alternator Field portion of the Master Switch circuit that runs from the Main Bus Bolt to the Master Switch circuit calls for a fusible link between the bus bolt and the 5A CB.  



2) Clarify for me how the Aux Feed (Brown Out) bus is used.  Is its normal use limited to pre flight activities?   Is it normally off or on during flight?  Are items on the bus like the #1 COMM radio powered normally from the Main Bus with the AUX Bus power use temporary during start and clearance delivery activities?



3) Does your Electronics International CGR-30P Engine Monitor stay on line during engine start, or will it reboot?

_________________
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 249

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

 	  bcone1381 wrote: 	
		  1) Clarify for me why the Z101 Alternator Field portion of the Master Switch circuit that runs from the Main Bus Bolt to the Master Switch circuit calls for a fusible link between the bus bolt and the 5A CB. 	


The wire from the bolt (probably located next to the battery, either on the firewall or in the aft cabin area) to the ALT FLD circuit breaker (on the instrument panel) would otherwise be unprotected against a short to ground.  Since fuses and CBs are not used in series, the fusible link wire provides protection against a dead short while easily carrying normal field current and being essentially immune to nuisance trips or vibration effects.



 	  Quote: 	
		  2) Clarify for me how the Aux Feed (Brown Out) bus is used.  Is its normal use limited to pre flight activities?   Is it normally off or on during flight?  Are items on the bus like the #1 COMM radio powered normally from the Main Bus with the AUX Bus power use temporary during start and clearance delivery activities? 	


The AUX BUS/AUX ALT switch is normally off during flight, and the AUX BUS is fed via the diode bridge (colored pink, labeled "W10," just above and to the right of the battery contactor).  If the BATTERY CONTACTOR fails open, that feed is lost, so the AUX BUS/AUX ALT switch is moved to the center "AUX BUS" position, closing the AUX BUS ALTERNATE FEED relay and feeding the AUS BUS from the fat wire tie point on the hot side of the BATTERY CONTACTOR.  If the main alternator or regulator fails, (as Bob would say, finish your cup of coffee, fold your newspaper, then...) move the switch to the upper position to close the AUX BUS alternate feed relay and activate the auxiliary alternator.



The AUX BUS switch can be closed to activate the relay during preflight activities if needed, then once the MASTER switch is on, turn the AUX BUS switch off.



The AUX BUS will not inherently prevent any susceptible avionics from rebooting during engine start.  That protection must be built in (low minimum input voltage) or be added via an inline energy storage device (backup battery or capacitor bank) or via a DC-to-DC boost converter (as shown in green, below the MAIN POWER DISTRIBUTION BUS).



If the airplane is intended for IFR flight then you'll probably opt for a backup battery to maintain instrumentation under all circumstances.  All other options that we've considered on the AE-List work only as start-induced-brownout protection.



 	  Quote: 	
		  3) Does your Electronics International CGR-30P Engine Monitor stay on line during engine start, or will it reboot? 	


It will probably be fine.  According to the specifications shown here...



https://iflyei.com/product/cgr-30p-premium/#CGR-30P-Specifications



...the power requirements are 7.5-30V.  Something is wrong if your bus voltage is dropping below 7.5V during start.

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 393
Location: MS

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:03 pm Post subject: Clarify Z101

On 10/20/2022 1:23 PM, bcone1381 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 1) Clarify for me why the Z101 Alternator Field portion of the Master Switch circuit that runs from the Main Bus Bolt to the Master Switch circuit calls for a fusible link between the bus bolt and the 5A CB.



 2) Clarify for me how the Aux Feed (Brown Out) bus is used.  Is its normal use limited to pre flight activities?   Is it normally off or on during flight?  Are items on the bus like the #1 COMM radio powered normally from the Main Bus with the AUX Bus power use temporary during start and clearance delivery activities?



 3) Does your Electronics International CGR-30P Engine Monitor stay on line during engine start, or will it reboot?



 --------

 Brooks Cone

 Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build

For #1, it's to protect the wire between the bus and the breaker. The 
	


bus has enough current available to 'light up' the wire; because it's 

tied directly to the bus, protection is needed.



Charlie



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Charlie

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1931
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

If the battery contactor fails open during flight (unlikely), how will the pilot know it?

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Joe Gores

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 249

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

 	  user9253 wrote: 	
		  If the battery contactor fails open during flight (unlikely), how will the pilot know it? 	


Haha!  Good point, Joe.  I was looking at the AUX ALT B lead (connected to the hot side of the contactor), since that was the switch involved in the OP's question.  Obviously the MAIN ALT will keep everything powered even if the contactor fails open, and the failure will only be evident once the engine is shut down.

bcone1381

Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

I am building a Bearhawk Patrol...similar to a Husky or Supercub.  Its VFR, with merely a Garmin G5, Engine Monitoring System, Surefly ignition, and Bendix Mechanical FI.



I have done my load analysis, drawn most schematics for individual circuits and now am selecting the parts of Z101 that will make up my electrical system.  I'm keeping this simple.  I will be satisfied with a Main bus and Battery Bus and will not install the CD/Aux/BO bus components.  



I request help deciding whether to include the Engine Bus.  



Each Ignition demands only 1.4A.  I will install a 16ah battery, 40A main alternator, and SD-8 Aux Alt.  The Surefly ignition manual says to wire the ignition module directly to the battery terminal.  It seems prudent to me to connect the second ignition wire to the BATT side of the Battery Contractor. The aux fuel pump will be on the main bus.  



Does this seem logical?  Building the Engine bus components seems more suited for a complex higher load installation.  



But I fear leaving out these four extra components of the engine bus architecture will compromise the system,  but I cant see how without multiple failure modes. What am I missing?

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Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1931
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

The simpler the electrical system is, the less chance of pilot error.

I would wire one ignition to the either the battery terminal or to the battery side of the battery contactor.

Wire the second ignition to the main power bus.

In the unlikely event that the battery contactor or battery itself fails, there are two alternators that can power the second ignition.

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Joe Gores

wsimpso1

Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 33
Location: Saline MI

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

Answering the OP questions in order:



1) The CB is usually part of the crowbar over voltage protection for the alternator. If it is fed by a long wire, it can be shorted without tripping the downstream CB. we usually find it appropriate to protect the plane from burning with a fuse or fusible link. Makes me wonder if the CB should be closer to the battery...



2) Brownout preventer keeps the volatile memory alive through engine start. Cranking usually draws circuits to 10 Volts or below, which usually causes electronics to reboot. These gadgets keep the navigator alive through cranking so you can program routes, etc before engine start. Evaluate the need based upon your use, programming, etc.



3)  Don't know that gadget, but others already have responded

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 393
Location: MS

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:37 am Post subject: Clarify Z101

On 10/21/2022 7:53 AM, wsimpso1 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Answering the OP questions in order:



 1) The CB is usually part of the crowbar over voltage protection for the alternator. If it is fed by a long wire, it can be shorted without tripping the downstream CB. we usually find it appropriate to protect the plane from burning with a fuse or fusible link. Makes me wonder if the CB should be closer to the battery...



By design, the alt field breaker needs to be pilot-accessible while in 
	


flight, in consideration of a potential 'nuisance trip' (reset *one* 

time if it trips in flight). Having it closer to the battery would mean 

having the battery close to the instrument panel....



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Charlie

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:03 am Post subject: Clarify Z101

At 04:23 PM 10/20/2022, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 If the battery contactor fails open during flight (unlikely), how will the pilot know it? 	


   in vast majority of instances, he wouldn't until

   dropping to taxi rpms after landing whereupon

   the bus voltage might drop.



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:06 am Post subject: Clarify Z101

At 04:58 PM 10/20/2022, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>



 

 user9253 wrote:

 > If the battery contactor fails open during flight (unlikely), how will the pilot know it?



 Haha!  Good point, Joe.  I was looking at the AUX ALT B lead (connected to the hot side of the contactor), since that was the switch involved in the OP's question.  Obviously the MAIN ALT will keep everything powered even if the contactor fails open, and the failure will only be evident once the engine is shut down. 	




   Correct!  The Beech Bonanzas and Barons do

   NOT link battery master to the alternator

   switch(es). In fact, alternator-only ops

   are not prohibited in the flight manuals.



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

bcone1381

Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

Regarding my 3 Original question in post 1....



1) I understand now why we fuselink the ALT FLD wire at the main bus.  Thank you for helping me understand.



2) I understand now why the B.O. Bus exists, and how it is powered, and how it is to be used during the preflight, under normal circumstances, and after a  Main Alternator fails.  I also now understand how the Brown Out preventer helps keep voltage up during engine start.  Thanks again for helping me.



3) I learned from another user that this engine monitor I have chosen stays on line during engine starts without a brown out preventer circuit.

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Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 166
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:07 am Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

 	  bcone1381 wrote: 	
		  

.

.

.

3) Does your Electronics International CGR-30P Engine Monitor stay on line during engine start, or will it reboot? 	




The installation manual says it works between 7.5 and 30V.

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John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

wsimpso1

Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 33
Location: Saline MI

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

 	  user9253 wrote: 	
		  If the battery contactor fails open during flight (unlikely), how will the pilot know it? 	




When the pilot pulls the throttle to idle, voltage drop from 14 might be noticed.



A further point is to review the failure modes and their effects. Looking at things that way may be enlightening. With the battery contactor failed open and wired per legacy designs, if the pilot (for whatever reason) attempts a reset of the alternator, the airplane goes dark and the alternator will not be re-energized. Why would a pilot do that? It is an instructional tool used by some instructors and some pilots check alternator function this way. Not saying it is right, but it is out there. Seems to be pretty low likelihood... 



With the designs we find dear to us from AeroElectric Connection, we have alternate methods of repowering the fields of our main and aux alternators. Z-12 has E-Bus Alternate Field switch, Z-14 has always hot buses, etc. Failure tolerant design changes the rare failed contactor from a full blown emergency into a ramp failure, and a simple repair. 



Billski

bcone1381

Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Clarify Z101

 	  johnbright wrote: 	
		   	  bcone1381 wrote: 	
		  

.

.

.

3) Does your Electronics International CGR-30P Engine Monitor stay on line during engine start, or will it reboot? 	




The installation manual says it works between 7.5 and 30V. 	




Awesome, Thanks for hunting that down John!  Feedback I'm getting fro a supercub owner agrees that it stays on line during start.

_________________
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build

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