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Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:23 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.  

   

Regards  

   

Nigel Charles  

       [quote][b]

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:34 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

nigel charles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown

 interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted

 to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move

 forward and design the product they want to find out 

 how much of a market there is for such a device.

 Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners

 would buy one. Any one who is interested should email

 me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the 

 numbers involved.


	


Hi Nigel



I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is

(or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be

provided into the cockpit.



See what possibilities have opened up because you went for

the XS FWF option 



Richard

G-OWWW High Cross

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:54 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Hi Nigel



Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for? I am

just in the process of fitting an intercooler that is used by several U.S.

owners in hot climates to keep engine temps down. Is your idea similar, if

so I have one already that was designed for the XS and could be used to

copy if required.

All the Best



Alan Burrows



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 nigel charles wrote:



> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown

> interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted

> to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move

> forward and design the product they want to find out

> how much of a market there is for such a device.

> Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners

> would buy one. Any one who is interested should email

> me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the

> numbers involved.



 Hi Nigel



 I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is

 (or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be

 provided into the cockpit.



 See what possibilities have opened up because you went for

 the XS FWF option 



 Richard

 G-OWWW High Cross

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

The heat exchanger is for cabin heat.



Nigel



--

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:30 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Hi ALAN

I Believe Nigel is talking about a Cabin heat exchanger, To use the hot air

from the exhaust for cockpit warming,



Regards

Ivor

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for?

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Thanks Ivor



Ah now I see... whats wrong with a good pair of socks that what I want to

know?? 



Alan

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com>



 Hi ALAN

 I Believe Nigel is talking about a Cabin heat exchanger, To use the hot

 air

 from the exhaust for cockpit warming,



 Regards

 Ivor

 Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for?

galahav(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

that's been a problem for me and the rotax. no

manufactured source of cabin heat and windshield

demister. i am very interested in that item. specs

please.

mike baker

--- nigel charles <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown

 interest in producing

 a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version

 of the aircraft.

 Before they move forward and design the product they

 want to find out

 how much of a market there is for such a device.

 Obviously it is only

 worth their while if enough owners would buy one.

 Any one who is

 interested should email me so I can give the

 manufacturer an idea of the

 numbers involved.

  

 Regards

  

 Nigel Charles

 


	




__________________________________________________

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

I know Peter Kember is interested.

 [quote]   The manufacturer for the Europa    exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to    the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the    product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device.    Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one    who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of    the numbers involved.

[b]

Trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Hi Guys,

  

 Do you think he would make one for the 914 engined aircraft?

  

 Trev Pond

 G-LINN

  [quote][b]

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Nigel,

 

 Depending on cost, I'd certainly be interested.

 

 Jeff

 Baby Blue

 

 nigel charles wrote:

 [quote]                        <![endif]-->     Clean   Clean   DocumentEmail                            MicrosoftInternetExplorer4   <![endif]-->          /* Style Definitions */   table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman";}  <![endif]-->      

The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.   

    

Regards   

    

Nigel Charles   

    	  Quote: 	
		  





  	
 [b]

danny shepherd

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 117
Location: north Wales, United Kingdom

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Hi Nigel,

             As I do most of my flying in winter, due to having a 

seasonal business I guess you better put me down for one.



Danny G-c.e.r.i



Nigel charles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in 

 producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the 

 aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to 

 find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it 

 is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who 

 is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea 

 of the numbers involved.



  



 Regards



  



 Nigel Charles



*

*



------------------------------------------------------------------------

robh(at)hyperion-ef.us
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the word “exhaust” suggests to me that this device would be a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing.  If so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and oil coolers?    

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit.  Anyone interested can contact me off list for the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

 AUTOTEXTLIST  \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->Best regards,  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Rob Housman  

A070  

Airframe complete  

Irvine, CA  

<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of nigel charles

 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 2:21 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.  

   

Regards  

   

Nigel Charles  [quote]<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>          - The Europa-List Email Forum --->               - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS --->               - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI --->              - List Contribution Web Site -Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.--> <![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>[b]

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

I am not familiar on how different the 914 exhaust system is from the 912/912S.

If a heat exchanger can be designed to suite both engine variants then there

isn't a problem. However if it needs to be different I suspect that CKT will

work on the 912/912S version first.



Nigel Charles

 	  Quote: 	
		  -- Original Message --

From: Trevpond(at)aol.com

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:22:10 EDT

Subject: Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Hi Guys,

 

Do you think he would make one for the 914 engined aircraft?

 

Trev Pond

G-LINN


	




___________________________________________________________



Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup!

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Rob and all,

 	  Quote: 	
		    why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when 

 there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and 

 oil coolers?




	


Right on the money.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

  



 What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed 

 air into the cockpit.  Anyone interested can contact me off list for 

 the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, 

 unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as 

 desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit.




	


In our 914 project, I took advantage of the warm air behind the 

radiators to warm the cockpit. Simple, litght and efficient, and since 

the radiator duct is separate from the engine compartment, zero CO ppm 

were found during flight tests.

You need a properly designed radiator duct, though.

FWIW,

Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Rob Housman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the

 word “exhaust” suggests to me that this device would be

 a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing.  If

 so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide

 sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?)

 air available aft of the water and oil coolers?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary

 ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit.  Anyone

 interested can contact me off list for the details of

 how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers,

 unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed

 (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into

 the cockpit.


	


Here in the UK any cabin air must be sourced from outside

the cowling. Without any chance of under-cowling air

getting in there.



The rationale is that if there is an engine fire then any

under-cowling air pick-up will pick up smoke and flames

and these are undesirable inside the cockpit.



Any heater/demist using an exhaust muff must have the muff

fed from outside the cowling and then led through the

firewall. And then the CAA/PFA will want some type of

integrity test or a solid blanking off plate on the

firewall also.



The "warm air aft of the water & oil coolers" route would

also have a problem if either radiator split and hot oil

or water was streamed up your duct into the cockpit.



A long shot but that's the way the CAA looks at things and

it costs us dear 



In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you

like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone

who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety  Ha ha !



Just my two-penny worth.



Richard

G-OWWW

High Cross

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Hi Rob,



Why off list? My guess is that many are interested. Please post your  

solution here?



I was told by a usual reliable source, that the factory tried an exhaust  

muffler once. The heat was more then enough, and before Andy was able to  

land, his shoes were melted to the pedals. It was really sweaty situation.  

This was given as the reason why the heating option, although announced,  

was never introduced. So yes, for me it will be the cooling duct if  

possible 



Kind Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http:www.europaowners.org/kit600

mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail  

closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed,  

fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and  

wings.

europa flugzeug fabrik

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 65
Location: North Coast, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

 	  robh(at)hyperion-ef.us wrote: 	
		  If so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and oil coolers? 	


According to NTSB accident data, such accidents are very rare.  One fatality in the last 5 years, meaning one in 150 million hours, and avg age of the fleet is now 30 years.  A heater shroud arrangement is a simple inspection item annually, if easy to remove, and exhaust can enter the cabin from other more common leak sources like gaskets and slip joints.



Iâ€™d be interested too, provided itâ€™s for the 914. Thereâ€™s little room around the muffler area, and if around the exhaust pipe, those pipes are kinda small. I curious also if anyone using the air aft of the coolers can report it works when outside temps aloft are down near 0-deg F.



Fred F.

richard_coleman(at)ntlwor
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Hi Nigel,  

   

My first posting – haven’t started construction yet as I have a set of MG wings ordered for UK use and I’m awaiting certification – but I would definitely be interested in a heat exchanger (and a cabin heat mod – Europa please note).  

   

regards  

Richard C-Coleman  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles

 Sent: 15 September 2006 10:21

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa  

  

   

The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.  

   

Regards  

   

Nigel Charles   	  Quote: 	
		     	
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        [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Rob

imho that's the sensible, elegant way to do it. They do it this way on 

the MCR Banbis too/ AFAIK it works.

Graham



Rob Housman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed 

 air into the cockpit.  Anyone interested can contact me off list for 

 the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, 

 unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as 

 desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit.



 Rob Housman



 A070

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Gilles

the duct needs to be properly designed for efficient, low drag cooling 

too. Several XS builders did redesign the duct with noteworthy results. 

Bob Berube might enlighten us if he's still listening?

Graham

Gilles Thesee wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In our 914 project, I took advantage of the warm air behind the 

 radiators to warm the cockpit. Simple, litght and efficient, and since 

 the radiator duct is separate from the engine compartment, zero CO ppm 

 were found during flight tests.

 You need a properly designed radiator duct, though.

  

 Regards,

 Gilles Thesee

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