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Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? Do you find access

through D panel a real pain? What battery, what size wire did you run, was

starter performance acceptable?



Any pictures?



Any opinion if I should make choice to mount battery there now or wait

till build is complete?



I suspect my XS Monowheel will tend to be on the nose heavy side. 



914

HD Starter

Intercooler

Oil Thermostat

Exhaust wrapped

CS Airmaster

Cooling air baffle

B+C ND Alternator

Full interior

Panel that is pretty full

Structural up stop, 3/4" marine ply and glassed to tunnel (both sides)

aluminium just forward of tyre 

Probably inflight adjustable cowl flaps and landing light in cowl



First fly with short wings, then will build glider wings (more nose heavy)



Tail heavy stuff

Have extended range fuel tank that will be used intermittent 

2 Andair 375 Gasculators aft of Baggage bay ribs in a box and cover/latch

Tank water drains just aft of box

Series pumps with bypass valves

Mod 70 which is heavier, also 2 turnbuckles, cables and butterfly

Rudder cable turnbuckles

Repaired stabilators (inner and outer bushings) stuck from bottom, (extra

glass and flox)

Stabilator drive bushing repair (redux/flox/washer)

T-Bar guide, balsa and 2 BID

Glassed foam support to maintain width dimension above mass balance arm 

2nd antenna and wiring

ELT

Kunzleman strobe box and LED position/Strobe on wingtips

Roll servo and associated

TE Probe and associated on rudder

jodel(at)nildram.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Mine is under the baggage bay so can't really comment on that.



What I can say is that wrapping the exhausts is a big no-no. It causes them

to crack.  It was mentioned in a factory newsletter quite a while back.



Secondly, the purpose of the mass balance arm is to balance the Stab'. If

Mod 70 is heavier them surely it will be out of balance???



Simon



--

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

I did just that recently in order to shift the cg because of the new cs 

prop, which is adding 4.2kg to the front end.

It is an Odyssey 680, with #6 gaugewiring, although #4 is recommended. 

Starting is much better than before, and I don't even have the new starter 

yet. It is a compact battery (see catalog), and weighs exactly 15 pounds 

plus whatever tray you make up for it. The wire run is relatively short: 

straight from the stbd firewall, under the door sill, and through the 

bulkhead. I made a platform out of fiberglass and plywood, and a criss/cross 

aluminum bracket to hold the battery in place. There is also a purpose 

madebracket available from ACS. Sorry, no pictures. It is mounted (using 

Redux) on the floor next to the rudder cable and is easy to reach.



Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:56:47 -0000






Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? Do you find access

through D panel a real pain? What battery, what size wire did you run, was

starter performance acceptable?



Any pictures?



Any opinion if I should make choice to mount battery there now or wait

till build is complete?



I suspect my XS Monowheel will tend to be on the nose heavy side.



914

HD Starter

Intercooler

Oil Thermostat

Exhaust wrapped

CS Airmaster

Cooling air baffle

B+C ND Alternator

Full interior

Panel that is pretty full

Structural up stop, 3/4" marine ply and glassed to tunnel (both sides)

aluminium just forward of tyre

Probably inflight adjustable cowl flaps and landing light in cowl



First fly with short wings, then will build glider wings (more nose heavy)



Tail heavy stuff

Have extended range fuel tank that will be used intermittent

2 Andair 375 Gasculators aft of Baggage bay ribs in a box and cover/latch

Tank water drains just aft of box

Series pumps with bypass valves

Mod 70 which is heavier, also 2 turnbuckles, cables and butterfly

Rudder cable turnbuckles

Repaired stabilators (inner and outer bushings) stuck from bottom, (extra

glass and flox)

Stabilator drive bushing repair (redux/flox/washer)

T-Bar guide, balsa and 2 BID

Glassed foam support to maintain width dimension above mass balance arm

2nd antenna and wiring

ELT

Kunzleman strobe box and LED position/Strobe on wingtips

Roll servo and associated

TE Probe and associated on rudder

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Simon

the Stab MUST be balanced. Otherwise you risk short period oscillation. 

After mod 70 is fitted you should check and adjust the balance. The new 

mod 70 will have its own CG at less radius than the old one, so you need 

more weight

Graham



Simon Smith wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Secondly, the purpose of the mass balance arm is to balance the Stab'. If

Mod 70 is heavier them surely it will be out of balance???



Simon

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

We mounted a 25 Amp hour battery under the starboard side baggage bay

access panel, and used 4 gauge wire up under the door sill and through

the firewall, using the Europa optional wiring kit.  We have never had a

problem with starter performance with this location.  We chose a larger

battery (25 Ahr) because we intend motor gliding some day, and expect to

power minimal electrics for hours with the engine off.



Regards,

Terry Seaver

A135/N135TD

--

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Hello Simon



Thx. for the reply.



"What I can say is that wrapping the exhausts is a big no-no. It causes

them to crack.  It was mentioned in a factory newsletter quite a while

back."



The 914 exhaust is different from the 912 or 912S exhaust. Rotax provides

the exhaust. That said the 914 exhaust changed material it was made out of

a while back. I forget if it is now 309 or 308SS.  Many certifier 914

installs, like the Xamango and Katana wrap their exhausts. The older ones

did have a tendency to crack. The newer ones are much more robust.

Lockwood recommends wrapping.



"Secondly, the purpose of the mass balance arm is to balance the Stab'. If

Mod 70 is heavier them surely it will be out of balance???"



The mass balance arm of Mod 70 is made out of a heavier wall tube with a

additional tube about half way, and the threaded lower fastener is heavier

than the original. The extra weight of all is not at the tip where the

weights are which has a large moment arm. My build is new so it does not

matter, I suspect a retrofit if needing to adjust weight amount at all

would be little. You could add all the weight you want to the center of

the stabilator TT without affecting balance, but an oz or 2 at the tip of

the mass balance arm will affect.



Do Not Archive



Ron Parigoris

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Ron,



I installed a 16AH Odyssey battery under the starboard side baggage bay.  I

used #4 welding cable and it works fine.  If you wanted to go further back

it wouldn't really be a problem.



About 22' of welding cable was required to put it under the baggage bay and

that stuff weights a lot.  If I was to do it over again I would calculate

out what would happen if I put the battery on the fire wall and offset it

with lead in the tail.  My hypothesis is that net weight gain would be less

because you would eliminate a long run of heavy cable.



Just my 2 cents worth



Paul

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Thanks to all for your replies.



Paul



"My hypothesis is that net weight gain would be less because you would

eliminate a long run of heavy cable."



I did the math and moving the battery aft nets to a more aft CG if the

battery is under the baggage bay cover using a Odyssey 545. Any battery

heavier, or if you move it more aft works even better. I compared with

battery mounted on the starboard foot-well, and the extra weight of the

cables mounted on the sternpost.



In addition I am not using a electro/magnetic battery contactor, but a

Flaming River Combo Battery and Alternator Kill switch:

http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/Category_ID=133/home_id=76/mode=cat/cat133.htm



It is on the back of Starboard headrest easily accessible by pilot. Turn

knob 1/4 turn to turn on, hit in center pops it off. Nice piece of

hardware.



Ron Parigoris

jodel(at)nildram.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:04 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Sorry!



Now I have engaged brain I see the error of my ways.



Simon



--

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

I installed my battery just aft of the flap tube and calculated the

weight penalty to be 1.5lb using #4 aircraft cable. I have submitted an

article for the next edition of the Europa Flyer which includes

discussion about the relative merits of battery position.



Regards



Nigel Charles



--

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Hi Nigel



Did you consider using CCA wire ?  See:



http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm



Paul

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:43 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

No for the following reasons:



1. I already had some a/c quality #4 cable, as used with C130 a/c

generators.

2. The oval plastic ducting available for domestic house electrics in

the UK provides a perfect fit to enable end feeding the cable from the

battery to the engine bay.

3. As the total weight penalty was about 1.5lb then the difference

between types of cable wasn't going to be significant.



Thanks for the info. I will bear it in mind for any future projects.



Nigel



--

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Displaying my ignorance...err what is CCA wire? 



--

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Nigel,



I used #4 welding cable which was nice and flexible and not very expensive,

but I remember when I was bringing the 25' roll home thinking "darn this

stuff weighs a lot"



I suspect that the thick flame proof rubber insulation added a weight

penalty over the cable you used.  I really wished I weighed it at the

time..... maybe I'll buy  a short section and do a rough calculation.



I tried to pay attention to weight in my aircraft, it came out at 860lb,

about average for a 914 mono, but I often think until you have built an

aircraft you really don't have a great appreciation of its importance.  Some

people have built 914 monowheels that have come in at 790 lbs..... I sure

wish mine weighed that.



I look forward to seeing your calculations of the "battery in the back"

weight trade off.



Regards,  Paul






 	  Quote: 	
		  No for the following reasons:


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  1. I already had some a/c quality #4 cable, as used with C130 a/c

generators.

2. The oval plastic ducting available for domestic house electrics in

the UK provides a perfect fit to enable end feeding the cable from the

battery to the engine bay.

3. As the total weight penalty was about 1.5lb then the difference

between types of cable wasn't going to be significant.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks for the info. I will bear it in mind for any future projects.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Nigel

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

It is too easy to get carried away adding weight to the aircraft. This

was especially a problem when the MTOW was only 1300lb. Just how

important it is depends a lot on pilot and passenger weights. If you can

carry at least 50lb baggage and full fuel with 2 people on board and

stay within MTOW the use of the Europa as a cruising has not been

compromised.



When it comes to allowing for weight of fuel be aware that many of the

fuel tanks expand with age. My tank started off with a 69 litre

capacity. It now holds 76 litres. This is good for range (about another

25 minutes flying) but it does add about another 5lb to the fuel weight.



Regards



Nigel Charles



--

gdh(at)isp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead?

Nigel,

Good info!

Thanks,

Dale

---

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