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Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

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lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

Hi All



I have decided to go the two fuel pump route in my 601XL.  Pumps to be located in the wings



Ive seen the pics on the CH601 site of the pump installed between NR1 and 2

Looks lie a sturdy installation but you would have to rip the entire leading edge off of the wing to do a replacement.



I took some measurements on my right wing  this evening and it looks like the pump could be mounted on the side of NR1 directly (possibly with a doubler) in the space between NR1 and the fusalage. If the pump needs service you have to pull the wing, but that seems easier than removing all of the rivets in the top of the LE skin.



It look like about 12 inches of line from the tank to the inlet of the pump, and I would put a filter in that line accessable from the inspection hole in the LE by NR3



Wadaya guys think? 



Also  if the rubber fuel line in the kit is not the best way to go, What other flexible fuel lines should I be looking for??  (not looking to start another Green SCOCHBRITE merry-go round   



Larry



601XL in Indiana

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

I wouldn't put a filter on the suction side of the fuel pump. It  

isn't necessary and it increases the risk of a fuel stoppage. All you  

should have on the suction side of the pump is the screen in the  

tank. The screen keeps the bigger stuff out of the fuel pump and  

filter will keep the small stuff from clogging the carbureter jets.  

The filter should go in the line just before the carburetor. Even on  

cars the filter is on the pressure side of the pump.

On Nov 26, 2006, at 8:21 PM, lwhitlow wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi All



 I have decided to go the two fuel pump route in my 601XL.  Pumps to  

 be located in the wings



 Ive seen the pics on the CH601 site of the pump installed between  

 NR1 and 2

 Looks lie a sturdy installation but you would have to rip the  

 entire leading edge off of the wing to do a replacement.



 I took some measurements on my right wing  this evening and it  

 looks like the pump could be mounted on the side of NR1 directly  

 (possibly with a doubler) in the space between NR1 and the  

 fusalage. If the pump needs service you have to pull the wing, but  

 that seems easier than removing all of the rivets in the top of the  

 LE skin.



 It look like about 12 inches of line from the tank to the inlet of  

 the pump, and I would put a filter in that line accessable from the  

 inspection hole in the LE by NR3



 Wadaya guys think?


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

I made a pair of mounting brackets that are  rivetted to NR2 and NR3. The brackets support the 40501 fuel pump in each  wing. The bracket and pump are displaced forward of the oval access hatch in the  bottom of the leading edge skin. The pumps are secured to the brackets by two  AN3 bolts (each) that engage rivetted platenuts. The access hatch allows  inspection and maintenance of the finger screens, the barbed hose fittings,  clamps, the unjustly maligned Bing fuel line, the pump, its wiring etc. The pump  can be removed and replaced as needed through the access hatch without attacking  the leading edge skin itself. In other words, I'm not sure why a wing mounted  pump would have to be placed anywhere else. This seems like the obvious best  place to me. I have photos if you are interested.. contact me off  list,

  

 Ed Moody II

 Rayne, LA

 601XL/Jabiru/baggage area

 [quote]   ---

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

HI Ed



Pics would be great!!    Maybe I have fat hands but I can't see how I coud get the pump loose and out of the access port. Even if i had a threaded mount for the pump getting a tool in there and holding the pump seems to be tough. Plus  the associated fuel lines would take up some space



I would love to see your install and how you solved the problem.  Why not post a pic here so we all can see?



Bryan



the Facet install sheet specifies a 70 micon filter on the inlet side of the pump



Has anyone else put a filter on the inlet side of the Facet pump??



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bryan wrote



I wouldn't put a filter on the suction side of the fuel pump. It

isn't necessary and it increases the risk of a fuel stoppage. All you

should have on the suction side of the pump is the screen in the

tank. The screen keeps the bigger stuff out of the fuel pump and

filter will keep the small stuff from clogging the carbureter jets.

The filter should go in the line just before the carburetor. Even on

cars the filter is on the pressure side of the pump.

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

Hi Ed,



 It sounds like a fine installation for the pumps.



 How do you deal with the electrical and fuel line switching?  Do you have it so only the active fuel line gets fuel pump electrical power?  Do you have one pump pumping against a closed valve at the selector?  Do you need to switch one pump on and another one off when you switch tanks?



 It seems to me the problems relating to switching the tank and pump at the same time are the worst part of using pumps in each wing.  This problem goes away completely if the electric pump is on the engine side of the fuel line selector valve.



 Best regards,



 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive



 At 06:37 PM 11/26/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I made a pair of mounting brackets that are rivetted to NR2 and NR3. The brackets support the 40501 fuel pump in each wing. The bracket and pump are displaced forward of the oval access hatch in the bottom of the leading edge skin. The pumps are secured to the brackets by two AN3 bolts (each) that engage rivetted platenuts. The access hatch allows inspection and maintenance of the finger screens, the barbed hose fittings, clamps, the unjustly maligned Bing fuel line, the pump, its wiring etc. The pump can be removed and replaced as needed through the access hatch without attacking the leading edge skin itself. In other words, I'm not sure why a wing mounted pump would have to be placed anywhere else. This seems like the obvious best place to me. I have photos if you are interested.. contact me off list,

  

 Ed Moody II

 Rayne, LA

 601XL/Jabiru/baggage area 	
 

 -    [quote][b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

There's really no problem as I see it. In most  aircraft, the boost pump is switched on, at least briefly, before the  demand occurs (ie starting the engine). In mine, the two wing tanks are plumbed  to the selector valve; from there on to the gascolator; from there on through  the firewall and the inline filter then the carb.

  

 On the pump electrical power issue, I  have the EXP BUS which has a single fuel pump switch protected by one of  their solid state circuit breaker devices. I intend to go from that switch  output to a left/right toggle switch to direct the power to the desired pump.  The selector switch will be located in the center console right by the selector  valve handle. In a routine situation, before switching tanks flip the boost pump  selector switch and flip the power on at the EXP BUS, then switch tanks. In an  urgent situation, switch tanks first then flip the selelctor switch  and turn on power at the panel. 

  

 Remember these are boost pumps that are  normally only used during full power at takeoff and climb, or in the  pattern on approach. The tank and  the pump to which power can be sent  have already been selected when things get busy. The only other time would  be if I had reason to suspect bubbles in the line (full or partial loss of  engine power inflight) so the action in that case is to simply switch power  on at the panel (the tank and pump are already selected).

  

 Ed

 [quote]   ---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

I'm a dentist and small work spaces are not scary  to me but this one is really no sweat. I did make the access port as big as the  space would allow but that is not much bigger than what was called for in the  plans. A small ratchet handle, a short extention and a short socket do the job  of installation / removal with reasoanble ease. Beats a root canal on an upper  second molar anyway.

  

 Ed

  

 Don't bother flaming me on the Bing fuel line...  that's what I'm using. 

 [quote]   ---

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

Hi Ed,



 I guess my thinking was a little different regarding the electric pumps.



 With a low wing airplane, a fuel pump is as necessary to the engine as spark plugs.  The real purpose of the electric pump is to provide fuel when the mechanical pump fails.  We turn them on at critical moments in anticipation of a potential mechanical pump failure.  If the mechanical pump is so nasty as to quit while we are landing or taking off then the electrical pump keeps the engine running.



 Your scenario sounds pretty good to me.  It is a bit complicated by the two switches rather than just one.  I wonder if there will be any damage to either the pump or the fuel lines or other fuel system components like filters if the wrong pump is powered up when it cannot actually cause fuel to flow.



 Best regards,



 Paul

 XL fuselage 

 do not archive



 



 

 At 07:40 PM 11/26/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]There's really no problem as I see it. In most aircraft, the boost pump is switched on, at least briefly, before the demand occurs (ie starting the engine). In mine, the two wing tanks are plumbed to the selector valve; from there on to the gascolator; from there on through the firewall and the inline filter then the carb.

  

 On the pump electrical power issue, I have the EXP BUS which has a single fuel pump switch protected by one of their solid state circuit breaker devices. I intend to go from that switch output to a left/right toggle switch to direct the power to the desired pump. The selector switch will be located in the center console right by the selector valve handle. In a routine situation, before switching tanks flip the boost pump selector switch and flip the power on at the EXP BUS, then switch tanks. In an urgent situation, switch tanks first then flip the selelctor switch and turn on power at the panel. 

  

 Remember these are boost pumps that are normally only used during full power at takeoff and climb, or in the pattern on approach. The tank and  the pump to which power can be sent have already been selected when things get busy. The only other time would be if I had reason to suspect bubbles in the line (full or partial loss of engine power inflight) so the action in that case is to simply switch power on at the panel (the tank and pump are already selected).

  

 Ed

 

 [b]

jpollard(at)ciaccess.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

At 08:21 PM 11/26/2006, lwhitlow wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Also  if the rubber fuel line in the kit is not the best way to go, What 

other flexible fuel lines should I be looking for??


	




I am using gates fuel injection hose in the outboard wing sections with fuel

injection type hose clamps. These clamps have the little nut and bolt that

squeezes the springy metal part of the clamp. They stay tight when the

material they are clamping expands and contracts with heat. The hose is the

latest type and is not affected by any of the present gas or diesel 

formulations.

This fuel line is called SAE 30R9 and is described in this gates document.



www.gates.com/common/downloads/files/Gates/brochure/TechTipsForm.pdf



or here (same thing)



http://acdelcotechconnect.com/pdf/tsb/tsb_fuel_line.pdf



Jim Pollard

Merlin Ont

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

>> Don't bother flaming me on the  Bing fuel line... that's what I'm using. 

  

 But it looks like you are using crimped clamps which is good  

  

 -- Craig

   [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question

A 70 micron filter is just a fine mesh screen like those found in  

gascolators and the screens in automotive fuel tanks. The stuff  

blocked by these screens winds up in the sediment bowl or fuel tank  

sump where it can be drained during pre-flight. My fuel pumps are  

just downstream of the gascolator at the low point of the system. I  

certainly wouldn't put anything finer ahead of the pump.



The idea is to minimize any flow restrictions on the inlet side of  

the pump to avoid reducing the pressure to the point where the fuel  

might vaporize in the line.

On Nov 26, 2006, at 10:07 PM, lwhitlow wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Bryan



 the Facet install sheet specifies a 70 micon filter on the inlet  

 side of the pump



 Has anyone else put a filter on the inlet side of the Facet pump??

>

>

> Bryan wrote

>

> I wouldn't put a filter on the suction side of the fuel pump. It

> isn't necessary and it increases the risk of a fuel stoppage. All you

> should have on the suction side of the pump is the screen in the

> tank. The screen keeps the bigger stuff out of the fuel pump and

> filter will keep the small stuff from clogging the carbureter jets.

> The filter should go in the line just before the carburetor. Even on

> cars the filter is on the pressure side of the pump.



-- 
	


Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

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