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james.s.clark(at)comcast.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
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I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following
comparison (archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet 
I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something
that I am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off
the mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same
category (mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4
seaters, with only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build
decision, but honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in
a mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots
Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
Gallons / hour: 10
Cruise Speed: 120 knots
Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not
much owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations
costs seem right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers
may do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my
numbers should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is
everyone else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting
hours. Also attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the
hidden costs offered up by list members (others still yet to be
included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in
expectation of responses to my questions...
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
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I'll do the unusual and give my short answer...
Hands down go with the Archer. If you're borrowing
that kind of cash to build the plane, it seems to
be overextending quite a bit for a "toy". Save a pile
of cash, make it a fairly risk-free thing, and spend 2 or
3 years flying your Archer to get used to the costs of
ownership. You can also wait a year and start on your
tail kit for the -10 with minimal cash outlay, if you've
found the finances to be working properly...and fly the
Archer until you actually *need* the cash to dump into the
RV-10 project...which would be a few MONTHS after you
start building it.
Owning and aircraft is a considerable expense. Knowing that
there are those who would crucify me for saying this, I'll
still be willing to say that you're just not going to own and
operate an RV-10 for anywhere near the costs of a <$75K spam
can, when all is said and done. Getting the experience in
a risk-free way can go a long way into helping you determine
the best future path.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
James S. Clark IV wrote:
| Quote: | I would appreciate hearing peoples comments on the following comparison
(archer vs RV10). Don't start laughing yet
I am doing this for budgetary planning purposes against something that I
am familiar with.
I would like to know if people think some of these numbers are off the
mark.
I know people will scream these planes are not even in the same category
(mostly in speed, newness, & avionics). Otherwise both are 4 seaters,
with only slightly different useful loads.
I know people will say its not the aircraft its the buy/build decision,
but honestly I would enjoy either process.
The following assumptions are used:
I am convinced I would LOVE building, not just flying. We do have the
time/patience to build.
Financing for loan payments (forced home refi due to balloon payment
coming due - 6.25% 30 year fixed with cash out to purchase 1/2 of
aircraft):
Shared ownership/building with each owner purchasing half
$4 fuel / gallon
Insurance for low time IFR pilot (250 total hours, only 30 complex in a
mooney).
200 total hours / year on aircraft (~100 per owner)
RV-10:
Total Loan Amount $150,000
Total loan payment per month: $924
Hanger / month: %330 a must to protect all the hard work
Gallons / hour: 12
Cruise Speed: 165 knots
Useful Load: 1180
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: $5000???
Maintenance / year: 1000 parts, free labor??
Fuel Cost / year: 9600
Total / year: 30,642
Total / month: $2554
Total / individual / month: 1277
Cost per flight hour: 153
Available: 3 years from now (but with fun experience of building)
Features: NEW everything, owner KNOWs aircraft inside & out
1976 Used Piper Archer II
Total Loan Amount 65k
Total loan payment per month: $400
Tiedown / month: 85 (tiedown ok for used plane)
Gallons / hour: 10
Cruise Speed: 120 knots
Useful Load: 1008
Seats: 4
Insurance / year: 2500???
Maintenance / year: 3000 parts/labor
Fuel Cost / year: 8000
Total / year: 19322
Total / month: 1610
Total / individual / month: 805
Cost per flight hour: 97
Available: 2 weeks
Features: Used, average paint, IFR ready now, dull and boring (not much
owner maintenance)
Do these look like reasonable numbers? Do the monthly operations costs
seem right?
I have attached a spreadsheet so those who want to change my numbers may
do so. I'd appreciate a copy back of your ideas if you think my numbers
should be changed. Especially the insurance figures. What is everyone
else paying for insurance with various numbers of piloting hours. Also
attached is an updated RV10 budget including many of the hidden costs
offered up by list members (others still yet to be included).
Thanks in advance,
Jim Clark
-Trying to figure out how to win the lottery...cowering in expectation
of responses to my questions...
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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rene(at)felker.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
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My comments would be....
If you want to be apples to apples, or something like that.
Equal up the fuel burn, you can always fly Lean of Peak and reduce power in
the RV 10.
Insurance costs look a little high for the RV-10, I don't have my final
insurance quote.....but it looks like it should be are $3300 for me.
Just my .5 cents.
Rene'
801-721-6080
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jjessen
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
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Jim, I haven't looked over your scenario in depth, but I keep going through
the comparison myself. Except for me, I chose to look at something with
comparable speed, as well as seats. You can get a nice Bonanza 33A for $150
- 175,000. Or, a older V35 for $65 - 85,000. 4 seats and 150 cruise. Do
some upgrades and get it nice and you're around, for the latter, $100,000.
Cheaper and you get in the air faster than building a -10. I've also looked
at Comanche's, but not sure if they are a good investment, given lack of
parts and a very odd panel for most of the older ones. It's an interesting
exercise. Keep one thing in mind. A 33A driver, with a gorgeous plane that
he owns with a partner, a few hangers down from mine, would trade me any day
for a finished -10. He can't just get in his 33A and go have fun. For him
it's a traveling machine. The -10 can almost act like a 2-seat RV-9A. Just
get in a have fun. Much more comfortable and more expensive to drive, but
fun nonetheless. Great visibility; excellent handling; comfortable. Great
avionics, even for those opting to do less than the latest and greatest.
You can do your own annuals and upgrades. And so on.
Just a few thoughts...
John Jessen
#328
do not archive
--
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
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One thing I would consider is the difference in travel time and range.
Figure your average trip length and the need of a fuel stop in one or both
planes, then calculate the extra fuel used for the stop, and calculate the
cost per mile, not the cost per hour. I overall agree with Tim, but this is
a very important part of the equation. You can get in a 172 a LOT cheaper
than the -10, but if you are normally traveling 800nm, then the RV can make
it nonstop and the Cessna will have to make 2 fuel stops, and burning 8gph
instead of 10-11, flying twice as many hours because of the stops, then the
cost per mile is higher in the Cessna than the -10. These numbers are just
off the top of my head, so they are not perfect, but I think it is safe to
say, in my experience, that the -10 is cheaper to fly than the 172 if you
are traveling, and that's not counting your time worth anything. I would
mainly recommend that you try to limit your debt to something more
reasonable and enjoy flying, and then start slowly on building a tail kit
and see how you enjoy it. If you don't, then you are out $5,000 (but have
some tools to show for it) and some time, and have saved yourself a LOT of
time and money and can enjoy flying still in the archer.
I also think the insurance on the -10 is estimated high. I would go with
$4,000 to be safe. Also, treat both planes equally. You could go with a
cheap paint job and save yourself money and feel more comfortable parking it
on the ramp. You can get covers for just about everything anyway, so I
would put the same treatment on both planes, either hangar both or tie both
down.
All IMHO, so do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
--
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
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In April 2006 I sold my 1977 Archer II and flew my RV-10 in August. Owned the Archer for 14 years and kept it in good condition. Only value of an Archer is if money is tight you can put it on lease back - but the General Public will rip the plane apart.
The RV-10 is all new and much less expensive to maintain. The RV-10 flys 50% faster with less fuel costs. Actual numbers are 13.5 MPG for the Archer and 16.3 MPG for the RV-10 at the same altitude. Only a great aerodynamic design can accomplish this feat!
I thought I liked flying the Archer. But now after flying the RV-10, flying in an Archer seems like a waste of time. In fact, the certified aircraft without glass panels are basically dead at this time and their value will continue to drop.
Sorry to be so discouraging ... or encourging depending how you view the situation.
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, Flying
billderou(at)yahoo.com (billderou(at)yahoo.com)
Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint"
One thing I would consider is the difference in travel time and range.
Figure your average trip length and the need of a fuel stop in one or both
planes, then calculate the extra fuel used for the stop, and calculate the
cost per mile, not the cost per hour. I overall agree with Tim, but this is
a very important part of the equation. You can get in a 172 a LOT cheaper
than the -10, but if you are normally traveling 800nm, then the RV can make
it nonstop and the Cessna will have to make 2 fuel stops, and burning 8gph
instead of 10-11, flying twice as many hours because of the stops, then the
cost per mile is higher in the Cessna than the -10. These numbers are just
off the top of my head, so they are not perfect, but I think it is safe to
say, in my experience, that the -10 is cheaper to fly than the 172 if you
are traveling, and that's not counting your time worth anything. I would
mainly recommend that you try to limit your debt to something more
reasonable and enjoy flying, and then start slowly on building a tail kit
and see how you enjoy it. If you don't, then you are out $5,000 (but have
some tools to show for it) and some time, and have saved yourself a LOT of
time and money and can enjoy flying still in the archer.
I also think the insurance on the -10 is estimated high. I would go with
$4,000 to be safe. Also, treat both planes equally. You could go with a
cheap paint job and save yourself money and feel more comfortable parking it
on the ramp. You can get covers for just about everything anyway, so I
would put the same treatment on both planes, either hangar both or tie both
down.
All IMHO, so do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
--
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: RV-10 Budgeting (ongoing) |
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James, I appreciate your effort and quantifying the endeavor we have all
embarked on. The first step as you have already read is to level the
playing field. A brand new life altering/ prideful RV-10 vs. a used 30
year old Archer will not be too similar but I understand.
Insurance quote needs correction. Hangar/storage costs needs equity in
your estimate technique - same storage technique - the RV-10 will hold
up longer. I think you are weighting it to make a used TC aircraft to
be similar to a Hi-performance self maintained dream machine.
Go out and fly in the back seat of an RV-10 - yes the back seat. At
6'3" and 240 pounds your comparison will be over. You can't get a panel
even remotely close to an RV-10 within $100,000. Get an IFR ticket if
you don't already have it. Get some 250+ horsepower time. Learn that
with MAP and RPM setting you can trim back the throttle to get the same
anemic performance from the RV-10 with the same miserly fuel flow per
hour as that worn out Archer. Be realistic on the future cost to buy
parts for the Archer and pay a mechanic to do the repairs. A close
friend made the decision on a 1986 C-182 at $136,000, then two years
later put another $40,000 into an engine replacement. Level the field
and come on in, the water is Great.
If I win the Lottery I will give you my RV-10 cause I am upgrading to an
Epic. You have to pay if you want to play... the Lottery that is.
John Cox
Do not Archive
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