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Wings Level ?
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rexjan(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

Are there really Fox drivers out there that are

so good that they can  tell if one wing tip is 7" higher than the other?

With the plane on a level  surface (hangar floor?) this is easy too

determine, but try it out on a sorta  level field.  You need a good level to

tell.

  

 I would think one can easilly detect 7'' out of  level in flight by looking out under one wing then the other to the horizon. My  instructor taught me this way back.



When I fly, I just use the  ball for an immediate indication of how level I

have the wings.

  

 The ball can be centred without being level in  flight. It may act as a level on the groung and stationary. Take for example if  you are making a co-ordinated turn. The ball is in the centre but the wings  aren't level. 

                                                                                                                                 Rex.

   [quote][b]

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

A personal observation of my own flying  time ,  if you want to fly level just look at the top of the  windshield and there is a straight bar that runs from the left front to the  right front and holds your wings on . if this bar is not level with the horizon  then you are not flying level . if you cordinate the horizon and the cross tube  and the ball in the center then straight true flight . as for landing and lining  up the plane and having to put a mark on your windshield ? who are we trying to  kid this plane lands straight and true if you keep the rudder moving with the  wheel on the right end THE BACKEND. 

   On a side note if you are mountain flying do  not try to keep the cross tube level with the terrain . the ground my up and  smite you a big one lol . 

 Just my humble opinion and none twisted my arm to  tell yall this stuff . 

  

 Take care have fun fly safe fly low fly slow  

 John Perry

 Kitfox 2 N718PD

  

 [quote]   

 

[b]

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

Rex,  

I am still skeptical.  When on the ground, engine off – just sitting there – have a friend lift one wing tip 3.5 inches.  This is easy to do.  Note the difference.  Now consider the same difference in the air with very light turbulence.  

   

Your second correction:  I stand corrected.  What I should have said is how coordinated I am flying.  But where it applies, straight line cruise, they are the same thing.  

   

Randy    

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Shaw

 Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:08 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Wings Level ?  

  

     

Are there really Fox drivers out there that are

 so good that they can tell if one wing tip is 7" higher than the other?

 With the plane on a level surface (hangar floor?) this is easy too

 determine, but try it out on a sorta level field.  You need a good level to

 tell.  

    

   

    

I would think one can easilly detect 7'' out of level in flight by looking out under one wing then the other to the horizon. My instructor taught me this way back.

 

 When I fly, I just use the ball for an immediate indication of how level I

 have the wings.  

    

   

    

The ball can be centred without being level in flight. It may act as a level on the groung and stationary. Take for example if you are making a co-ordinated turn. The ball is in the centre but the wings aren't level.   

    

                                                                                                                               Rex.  

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       [quote][b]

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

I tend to agree with Randy on this one.  On a calm gradual descent I can fly 

hands off for long periods.  I mention this, because it gives me reason to 

believe my wings are trimmed correctly, but at cruise, I need a tad of right 

rudder to maintain heading.  While coming home from our last cross country, 

We flew two legs of about 3 hours each and during that time, I worked on my 

coodinated flight with a little right rudder and trying to keep the ball 

centered and watching the wingtips relative to the horizon.  Either I am 

losing it as a pilot or just losing it, but I have a real challenge trying 

to fly with the wings level.  I am strongly motivated to do something with 

the rudder trim and see if that is my problem.



When we fly the highways or the rivers, no problemo, as we are in turns 

almost continuously, but a GPS heading for hours at a time - I need some 

work.



Lowell

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

At 06:51 PM 9/5/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Either I am

losing it as a pilot or just losing it, but I have a real challenge trying

to fly with the wings level.  I am strongly motivated to do something with

the rudder trim and see if that is my problem.


	


If I recall correctly, your plane doesn't have a lot of dihedral. If you 

want to fly hands-off, pump up the dihedral and it will get rock steady.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Ceashman(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

--message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"

  

 --I am strongly motivated to do something with the rudder trim and see if that is my problem.

  

 Hi Lowell.

 When climbing, I use a little right rudder and when descending I use left. When level and cruise in still air I use no rudder. But that again is in still air, you know, those times when you are at peace with your Kitfox, life and the whole world and you just want to fly for ever.

  

 But if you constantly need to keep a toe on the rudder pedal, it could be because of slight rudder warping while shrinking the covering (This was probably the first item we all cover, to gain experience with the covering process)

  

 You will see sometimes on factory produced airplanes a small tab of aluminum attached to the rudder for ground adjustable trimming purposes, so you can say this is the "poor mans trim tab". So even the professional manufacturers require the need for the customers self aligning trim tab.

  

 I guess we do not notice the problem with the elevator, we expect to trim for level flight. So why can't we trim for straight line flight, = straight and level! 

  

 Unfortunately, while welding all the tubes together. Skystar did not weld a small plate to the rear rudder tube so that we could attach a small piece of aluminum on the outside of the fabric for trimming purposes.

 My Skybolt plans have this little weldment with the rivet on threads that can be used later for attaching the tab.



So' Either I am losing it as a pilot or just losing it, but I have a real challenge trying 

to fly with the wings level.  

 I really don't think you are losing it as a pilot, it looks like a trim tab is required.

 OR JUST LOSING IT! Lowell, only close friends and family could answer that one 

  

 Thanks for keeping tabs [Ha-Ha]. on the "type of aircraft" index.

 Cheers. Eric.

  

  [quote][b]

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

You MAY find that different motor torque is the culprit.  You can either use

rudder trim or shim for motor offset and probably help.  Bob UP.



---

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

Several years ago I added a simple metal trim tab to my rudder (Ground adjustable bend).  It eliminated the stiff quadracep following long cross countries. I attached it at the point of tightest curve on the bottom for leverage. Three pop rivets do the trick.  I have it set up for about 100 mph indicated.  Your chosen speed may vary. The total time invested, including drying time was less than an hour.

  

 It was a worthwhile addition.

  

 John Kerr

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> 



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" 

 

 I tend to agree with Randy on this one. On a calm gradual descent I can fly 

 hands off for long periods. I mention this, because it gives me reason to 

 believe my wings are trimmed correctly, but at cruise, I need a tad of right 

 rudder to maintain heading. While coming home from our last cross country, 

 We flew two legs of about 3 hours each and during that time, I worked on my 

 coodinated flight with a little right rudder and trying to keep the ball 

 centered and watching the wingtips relative to the horizon. Either I am 

 losing it as a pilot or just losing it, but I have a real challenge trying 

 to fly with the wings level  . I am  strongly motivated to do something with 

 the rudder trim and see if that is my problem. 

 

 When we fly the highways or the rivers, no problemo, as we are in turns 

 almost continuously, but a GPS heading for hours at a time - I need some 

 work. 

 

 Lowell 

 ---

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

On my speedster the tailwheel is set loose enough that if I am out of trim  in cruise I can give the rudder petal a quick push and cock the tailwheel so  that it acts as a trim.

 As I use right rudder pedal on take of it usually means that I have to kick  the left rudder to trim the airplane when I level off.

 I used to fly a Cessna 180 that I had to do the same thing.

  

 Floran H.

 [quote]   ---

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Wings Level ?

Rex,

I'm trying to get the jest of this thread.  I think you are just making a comment that the airplane needs constant attention to fly straight.  I have to say yes.  But then again that's what makes the kitfox or any aircraft like her so fun to fly.  It really isn't a long distance flier unless you plan on a long time to get to your destination, sure many have flown from out west to OSH, but for the normal person, that isn't feasable, mainly because of time constraints and it takes plenty of inputs to keep you on track.  I love mine if within 50 miles from the airport and I have taken a few trips over 200 miles, but at least one stop in between is usually in line.



I never have an issue with holding wings level and on the rudder I usually just rest my right foot on the peddle and that takes care of the drift to the right.  I do have dihedral in my wings so that stablizes the plane very nicely.  Whenever the sun is out in full I generally have one wing up higher and compensate with the rudder to give a nice sun sheild, doesn't seem to effect airspeed so that's how I do it.  When I land I can settle on both wheels at the same time, so I guess I know where wings level are on the plane when flying it.



I've been spending most of my time at the airport doing touch and goes.  The other day, I was feeling pretty frisky and did about 15 touches in a half hour.  There was a training flight in the right pattern and I was in the left, the runway is 9000ft long and the tower kept me in a close in short approach.  I actually got 3 touches while the 152 was on final.  I was a bit worn after I landed, the fox really takes all your senses to fly like that.  

I did think it was rather amusing, the instructor that was in the 152 said, wow you did 3 touches in our final approach, all I could say was, Yup.



Last night the smoke from our fires was so great I took the wife up for some touches, she made it through 3, I constrained my self and did three in about a half hour.  But still managed to do the turn outs at the biggining and end of the runway.  We were getting winds from everywhere, variable at about 6.  I hit both runways and feel very confident that the fox is very controllable.  In fact on my final, a little fast, I wanted to practice my wheel landing, I touched a little fast and the right wheel shuddered a little so I pulled up ever so slightly and waited until I was slower and settled back down, the wife said I went up about 2 inches off the runway, I thought, way cool.



From the sounds of it you just need more time in the fox, before you know it, things will feel second nature.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

I do have a bit of dihedral.  I am goung to ry to do something with the 

rudder.  I am in deep thought about it, trying to avoid the tab, but that 

eventualy will be the likely solution.



Lowell

---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

Interesting thought.  I put washers under the engine mount to shim it a bit 

when building per the post weld distortion.  I will check that to see if the 

locations are likely to give the result I have.



Lowell

do not archive

---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

Interesting!  I'll have to try that.



Lowell

do not archive

---

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

Lowell,

If you could, I'd be very interested in your thrust offset measurements. I

put in 2 degrees down and 2 degrees right on my new mount, going by the old

standard, but I couldn't find any reference to what it should be for the

fox.



Bradley



--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: Wings Level ?

Bradley,



At the risk of sounding like dummy, I haven't a clue how to determine thrust 

offset measurements.  It would seem to me that it would require some 

sophisticated way of accurately determining the long axis of the airframe 

and the thrust line of the engine - perp. to the prop flange, I suppose, 

and calculating an angle.



All I did was add washers to compensate for a warped engine mount per the 

manual.  I will report on where the washers are if that is helpful, but my 

guess is that if the engineers put thrust offset into the mount, it would be 

buried there somewhere in the design.



If it isn't too complex a procedure, I might be willing to try.



Lowell

---

Ceashman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

--From: Floran H.

  



 --I can give the rudder petal a quick push and cock the tailwheel so that it acts as a trim.

 --As I use right rudder pedal on take of it usually means that I have to kick the left rudder to --trim the airplane when I level off. I used fly a Cessna 180 that I had to do the same thing.

  

 Hi Floran.

  

 That sounds kind of logical, using the tail wheel as a trim tab.

 Notice you nose wheel guy,s, this is another advantage of having the steering wheel at back 

  I am also thinking that an 8 inch wheel would be more beneficial to in flight trim than the smaller 6 inch. But then again, 8 inch = more drag. 6 inch looks nicer.

 Eric.

  [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:26 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

At 09:02 PM 9/6/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  If it isn't too complex a procedure, I might be willing to try.


	


Horizontal offset isn't too difficult. First check your prop tracking. It 

should be within 1/16". If it is, then set a blade horizontal and measure 

from the tip to the something near the rudder pivot. (It doesn't matter 

what, as long as it's close to centerline and can be duplicated exactly on 

both sides.) Shift that blade to the other side and measure the same way. 

The prop offset angle is then:



arctan ((distance measured one side - distance measured the other side) / 

prop diameter)



This tells you nothing, of course, about where the prop thrust centerline 

crosses the aircraft centerline. If you have a laser level that will throw 

a vertical line you might be able to measure the offset at the prop hub and 

trig the crossing.



You can do the same for the vertical offset, but it's harder since you must 

construct the horizontal centerline by leveling the airframe and using a 

level to find a measuring point offset to the front or rear. Or you can 

just pick a point on your airframe, measure the prop angle relative to 

that, and replicate it on other airframes. This assumes, of course, that 

the other airframes are identical; a dubious assumption for our aircraft.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:52 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

I'm also thinking about a trim fin for the rudder, Lowell. I'd like a 

cabin-adjustable. The biggest problem is I don't want to have to deal 

with stripping the covering and going in there with a servo, etc. I'm 

going to think more about it after I get my Sport Pilot Cert. and I get 

to actually GO somewhere...then when my right leg gets oversize, I'll 

put that project higher on the priority list. : )



Lynn

On Wednesday, September 6, 2006, at 06:02  PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I do have a bit of dihedral.  I am goung to ry to do something with 

 the rudder.  I am in deep thought about it, trying to avoid the tab, 

 but that eventualy will be the likely solution.



 Lowell

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

Lowell, early on I had experimented with the notion of progressively shortening the right rudder pedal spring until I had it where it was most comfortable. It can be done by using safety wire to close up multiple loops of the spring incrimentally.

  

 In the end I went with the tab because it was less hassle to adjust.

  

 John Kerr

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> 



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" 

 

 I do have a bit of dihedral. I am goung to ry to do something with the 

 rudder. I am in deep thought about it, trying to avoid the tab, but that 

 eventualy will be the likely solution. 

 

 Lowell 

 ---

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: Wings Level ?

Lynn:



An option is to use different length rudder cables. 

This implies that the rudder will be slightly to the

right when the rudder pedals are in the neutral

position.  You will still need to apply pressure on

the right pedal, but the feet will be aproximately

aligned (your body will be symetrically aligned with

the seat).



I have seen this on Challengers, and intend to do it

on my new plane.



José



--- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 I'm also thinking about a trim fin for the rudder,

 Lowell. I'd like a 

 cabin-adjustable. The biggest problem is I don't

 want to have to deal 

 with stripping the covering and going in there with

 a servo, etc. I'm 

 going to think more about it after I get my Sport

 Pilot Cert. and I get 

 to actually GO somewhere...then when my right leg

 gets oversize, I'll 

 put that project higher on the priority list. : )

 

 Lynn

 On Wednesday, September 6, 2006, at 06:02  PM,

 Lowell Fitt wrote:

 

 > 

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

 >

 > I do have a bit of dihedral.  I am goung to ry to

 do something with 

 > the rudder.  I am in deep thought about it, trying

 to avoid the tab, 

 > but that eventualy will be the likely solution.

 >

 > Lowell

 

 



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