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How rediculous is this?!
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webmaster(at)flion.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Well, reading the article, it’s probably because they were looking for handling suitable for an ‘everyplane’; one that can be handled by relatively unskilled and untrained pilot.  That would *not* be an RV.  Now, if it was a performance handling contest, then I would be surprised.  

   

Pat Kelley – RV-6A – panel cut and being wired  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Amit Dagan

 Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:18 PM

 To: RV-List Digest Server

 Subject: How rediculous is this?!  

  

   

Now I know that I am preaching to the choir here, but after reading this:

  

 http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9758741-7.html

  

 I must ask, how can it be that a C-172 wins the handling qualities category over an RV???

  

  

 Sure made me wonder just how modified that RV-4 was, note that it also won in the quietest category.

  

 Just makes me wonder.   [quote] [b]

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Hi Amit-

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  I must ask, how can it be that a C-172 wins the handling qualities category

over an RV???
	


 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sure made me wonder just how modified that RV-4 was

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Just makes me wonder.


	


The RV was 'highly modified' and won the speed contest.  If the owner was

willing to spend the time and effort to do the speed mods, he was also

probably willing to ballast the plane as far aft as possible to mitigate

the induced drag of both the wing and stabilizer.  This in turn would

degrade the handling characteristics of the plane significantly. 

Everything is a trade off...



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

 “unskilled and untrained pilot“    

   

Does this make any sense?  

Do Not Archive  

  

  

       [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Tim Bryan wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		                           

 “unskilled and untrained pilot“     

    

Does this make any sense?   

Do Not Archive   

   

   

 	
 Yup.  Don't know where that quote came from, but there are a lot of 'em out there ..... giving the rest of us a bad name.   You can buy an airplane, get someone to 'check you out' and go fly without ever having to get your license.  Not a good recipe for a long life,  but they're out there.  Be afraid, really afraid.

 Linn

 [quote]            

   

   

   

    	  Quote: 	
		  

	
 [b]

webmaster(at)flion.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

No, it makes no sense.  It makes no sense that you deliberately quote out of context and change the meaning of my words as well as fail to acknowledge the intent of the competition that was being discussed.  ‘Relatively’ was a key word in my post.    

   

The issue is accessibility.  A high-time pilot is not going to have any trouble finding an aircraft to suit his needs (except for the ever-present question of practicality.)  For the newly-minted pilot, though, the choices are bleak.  Either a new aircraft who’s expense far outruns its performance or an aging but still-expensive aircraft or, usually, some form of time-share.  Not everyone is cut out to be a builder.  The aviation community has always been looking for that magical mix of low-cost, speed, and easy handling that would make flying practical for everyone but it just hasn’t happened yet.  And even experienced pilots don’t (and shouldn’t) sneer at easy handling; what makes the RV a great plane to fly also leads to a large debate over its suitability as an instrument platform.  

   

I don’t think they’ll find an aircraft that will suddenly make aviation as common as automobiles (and that is probably a good thing; could you imagine the congestion?) but I think every effort to make it more practical benefits us all.  Even a small gain could get more people off the fence and into the sport.  Does that really make no sense?  

   

Patrick Kelley – RV-6A in progress        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan

 Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:25 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: How rediculous is this?!  

  

       

 “unskilled and untrained pilot“    

   

Does this make any sense?  

Do Not Archive  

  

  

       [quote][b]

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Hi Linn,  

   

It came from the previous post.  I realize he didn’t mean it exactly so no flame was intended by me.  However for your comments, the idea of considering someone who buys an airplane, gets someone to check em out, and goes flying without ever getting a license; they are not pilots.  The idea of airplanes being piloted by “unskilled and untrained pilots” is scary to me and should not be happening as they are not pilots.  I realize non-pilots do get out there but building airplanes targeted at that audience however I don’t really think is happening.  

   

Airplanes should be built for pilots who are trained and skilled.  Now the level of skill and training certainly varies and may be what he was referring to.  

   

Tim  

Do Not Archive  

           

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters

 Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:15 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: How rediculous is this?!  

  

   

Tim Bryan wrote:

 

       

 “unskilled and untrained pilot“      

   

Does this make any sense?  

Do Not Archive  

  

  

Yup.  Don't know where that quote came from, but there are a lot of 'em out there ..... giving the rest of us a bad name.   You can buy an airplane, get someone to 'check you out' and go fly without ever having to get your license.  Not a good recipe for a long life,  but they're out there.  Be afraid, really afraid.

 Linn

 

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       [quote][b]

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

No, it makes no sense.  It makes no sense that you deliberately quote out of context and change the meaning of my words as well as fail to acknowledge the intent of the competition that was being discussed.  ‘Relatively’ was a key word in my post.    

[Tim]   

Patrick,  You are right!  I was not intending to flame you for your comments at all and apologize as I only caught the phrase I quoted.  I am sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you.  It was an interesting point, one which is a little more frightening as it becomes more and more of a reality for non trained, and non skilled persons to be flying airplanes because they become more available and touted as anybody planes.  It used to be *Some* ultra-light pilots who could with no training take passengers up so long as they called it a training flight.  This has changed for the better but how many of those non-trained persons will continue to fly once moved to something other than the *newly* defined ultra-light?  Do you think a/c manufactures should tout their planes as “Anybody planes” or “So Easy a caveman could do it” type ads?  Piloting requires a level of skill and training regardless of what you fly.  A person who chooses a Cessna over an RV should do so based on their comfort level and desire but certainly I don’t think because they feel they are unskilled enough.  We as pilots do challenge ourselves to continue learning and gaining skill and competence with what we choose to fly.  

   

Take care  

Tim   

   

The issue is accessibility.  A high-time pilot is not going to have any trouble finding an aircraft to suit his needs (except for the ever-present question of practicality.)  For the newly-minted pilot, though, the choices are bleak.  Either a new aircraft who’s expense far outruns its performance or an aging but still-expensive aircraft or, usually, some form of time-share.  Not everyone is cut out to be a builder.  The aviation community has always been looking for that magical mix of low-cost, speed, and easy handling that would make flying practical for everyone but it just hasn’t happened yet.  And even experienced pilots don’t (and shouldn’t) sneer at easy handling; what makes the RV a great plane to fly also leads to a large debate over its suitability as an instrument platform.  

   

I don’t think they’ll find an aircraft that will suddenly make aviation as common as automobiles (and that is probably a good thing; could you imagine the congestion?) but I think every effort to make it more practical benefits us all.  Even a small gain could get more people off the fence and into the sport.  Does that really make no sense?  

   

Patrick Kelley – RV-6A in progress        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan

 Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:25 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: How rediculous is this?!  

  

       

 “unskilled and untrained pilot“    

   

Does this make any sense?  

Do Not Archive  

  

   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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       [quote][b]

webmaster(at)flion.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Ah, ok.  Yah, your concerns are well noted and I certainly don’t advocate untrained and unlicensed pilots; I completely agree with you there.  And when I got my Private, the check pilot referred to it as my ‘license to learn’; I know there’s a lot of aircraft out there I’d need much training to fly.  Your comments about marketing hype and the unintended consequences on inexperienced pilots are valid, which is why training is important to counteract that.  But aside from hype, actually designing a plane that performs better and cheaper is still an ideal worth pursuing.  

   

Anyway, I’m glad to see that we’re pretty much on the same page and that you weren’t intending to misquote me.  Apology gladly accepted; I prefer to think of all RV pilots as friends.  

   

And, definitely, do not archive.  

   

Pat Kelley  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan

 Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:06 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: How rediculous is this?!  

  

     

   

No, it makes no sense.  It makes no sense that you deliberately quote out of context and change the meaning of my words as well as fail to acknowledge the intent of the competition that was being discussed.  ‘Relatively’ was a key word in my post.    

[Tim]   

Patrick,  You are right!  I was not intending to flame you for your comments at all and apologize as I only caught the phrase I quoted.  I am sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you.  

   

*remainder snipped*  

  [quote] [b]

evmeg(at)snowcrest.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

This is great news! That has got to be our man Dave Anders. He has been

working hard on this contest for a while and his biggest concern was the

noise factor. He seems to have done exceptionally well on that front.

Congratulations are in order.

Cheers..

Evan Johnson

---------------------------------------------

This message was sent using SnowCrest WebMail.

http://www.snowcrest.net

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I must ask, how can it be that a C-172 wins the handling qualities 

category over an RV???


	




I am not a big fan of the C-172, but, I take no pleasure in putting 

it down either.  But, to answer your question try this exercise in 

both planes.



While flying, open a completely folded sectional, find your location 

on the map and then refold the sectional and put it away.  For me, it 

is much easier in a C-172 than my RV6.



Of course, no one in their right mind would ever let cockpit 

management get so sloppy!  I have never done this, and I promise 

never to do it again!!



I think the real question should be, what is the criteria used to 

judge the handling qualities.



Bob

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Bob, that's a completely ridiculous example.  When I fly, the  

sequence is much more like....

Reach into the flight bag located on the back seat, fumbling around  

for the map.

Turn around to look at what you're doing

Find the map, but realize it's the wrong one

Tell my wife to get her hands off the controls -- the plane flies  

better when she leaves it alone (honest to god!)

Half climb into the back seat so I can see better

Finally find the right map

Open it

Find I'm on the wrong side, so refold it and reopen it the right way

Find my location

Refold it once more

Make small course correction, having drifted off course 5 degrees  

during the above.

My RV is going to have *some* sort of wing leveler / autopilot.  A  

C172 doesn't need one.

-Joe 

do not archive

On Aug 13, 2007, at 2:59 PM, Bob wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

>

> I must ask, how can it be that a C-172 wins the handling qualities  

> category over an RV???

 I am not a big fan of the C-172, but, I take no pleasure in putting  

 it down either.  But, to answer your question try this exercise in  

 both planes.

 While flying, open a completely folded sectional, find your  

 location on the map and then refold the sectional and put it away.   

 For me, it is much easier in a C-172 than my RV6.

 Of course, no one in their right mind would ever let cockpit  

 management get so sloppy!  I have never done this, and I promise  

 never to do it again!!

 I think the real question should be, what is the criteria used to  

 judge the handling qualities.

 Bob

 RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Have you ever wondered who thought it was a good idea to design sectionals

this way for airplanes?  I have thought about cutting a sectional up into

pages and making some kind of book for it.  Would sure be lots of work

however to keep doing this.  We fly off a page pretty quick too.  (Quicker

than a 172 does anyway)



Tim

Do Not Archive



[quote] --

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Wow I am in a big right turn and a severe dive if I do that!  My wife

doesn't have any controls when we fly.  I take it out. 

Tim



[quote] --

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Tim,



You are precisely describing the Air Chart System's VFR or IFR Atlas.

Half the cost and half the bother of Jeppesen...and no folding.

http://www.airchart.com/Pages/product.html



Chuck Jensen



 

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan



Have you ever wondered who thought it was a good idea to design

sectionals this way for airplanes?  I have thought about cutting a

sectional up into pages and making some kind of book for it.  Would sure

be lots of work however to keep doing this.  We fly off a page pretty

quick too.  (Quicker than a 172 does anyway)

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Bob,



What's a "folded sectional"?  Is that something that comes with a GPS

and moving map? I thought I saw one once in the Air-n-Space Museum---it

was in a photo and was under the pilot's arm as he was hand propping an

airplane; very quaint.       



Chuck Jensen



--

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Fly in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area.  You need 5 maps for VFR  

without traveling further than 50 miles from home:



-Minneapolis terminal area chart

-Twin Cities Sectional

-Green Bay Sectional if you fly east

-Chicago Sectional if you fly southeast

-Omaha Sectional if you fly southwest



In any case, I prefer maps like this than in a book.  Too much  

fumbling around in a book.  Ultimately, however, I think the best  

solution is going to come from a "tablet" style  computer where you  

can easily scroll the map in any particular direction plus zoom in /  

out capabilities.  Just need one cheap enough and reliable enough to  

use, with a subscription service that delivers electronically.



-Joe

do not archive



On Aug 13, 2007, at 3:00 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Have you ever wondered who thought it was a good idea to design  

 sectionals

 this way for airplanes?  I have thought about cutting a sectional  

 up into

 pages and making some kind of book for it.  Would sure be lots of work

 however to keep doing this.  We fly off a page pretty quick too.   

 (Quicker

 than a 172 does anyway)



 Tim

 Do Not Archive

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: How rediculous is this?!

[quote="n616tb(at)btsapps.com"]Wow I am in a big right turn and a severe dive if I do that!  My wife

doesn't have any controls when we fly.  I take it out. 

Tim



 	  Quote: 	
		   -- 	




This is precisely the scenario that led me to put the single-axis TruTrak in my RV.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

I do have the trio but without altitude hold.  Adding that will be next as I

do love the auto pilot.  However if I lean around to the back the way he

described, I would easily put enough pressure on the stick to override the

servo.  I would probably know I did that.  I try to put the things I need in

my wife's lap before I go.  The ox tank valve is the one I forget when all

of a sudden I need to climb to get over those tall clouds.



Tim 

Do Not Archive



[quote] --

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

Actually, what you describe below sounds a lot like what I had/have

with Chart Case Express.  I just started using Voyager software

at OSH, and that seems similar, but currently Chart Case has

them beat from a live tracking on Sectional/Low-Enroute charts,

and it really works slick.  Each program has it's plusses and

minuses, but Chart Case Express very much does exactly what you're

talking about, and works on my tablet well.  It even plots your

course on approach charts.  Voyager will do it on the approach

charts but they don't yet offer geo-referenced sectionals

and low-enroutes to plot your position on.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Joseph Larson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Fly in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area.  You need 5 maps for VFR without 

 traveling further than 50 miles from home:

 -Minneapolis terminal area chart

 -Twin Cities Sectional

 -Green Bay Sectional if you fly east

 -Chicago Sectional if you fly southeast

 -Omaha Sectional if you fly southwest

 In any case, I prefer maps like this than in a book.  Too much fumbling 

 around in a book.  Ultimately, however, I think the best solution is 

 going to come from a "tablet" style  computer where you can easily 

 scroll the map in any particular direction plus zoom in / out 

 capabilities.  Just need one cheap enough and reliable enough to use, 

 with a subscription service that delivers electronically.

 -Joe

 do not archive

 On Aug 13, 2007, at 3:00 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:

> 

>

> Have you ever wondered who thought it was a good idea to design 

> sectionals

> this way for airplanes?  I have thought about cutting a sectional up into

> pages and making some kind of book for it.  Would sure be lots of work

> however to keep doing this.  We fly off a page pretty quick too.  

> (Quicker

> than a 172 does anyway)

>

> Tim

> Do Not Archive

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: How rediculous is this?!

I have been using Flightsoft for several years now.  When I plan a flight, I

just download the current sectional and I can print out my route with the

course line included.  It does use a lot of ink however and you don't get

any additional charts unless you print them all off also.



The advantage of having some charts in the plane even if you aren't using

them (besides legality) is having them when you need to deviate.  This

occurred to me real recently when I was up playing in the

thunderstorms(shiver).  The chart came in pretty handy even though I have

sectional printouts and a sectional moving map display (MX20).  I was trying

to unravel a large sectional however on short notice and it was quite

distracting.  A book open seems pretty nice.



I haven't seen the voyager software, but I am quite happy with flight soft

as I get flight planning, sectionals, moving map on my ipaq if I want, live

weather, all database updates, and bargain fuel finder all for one low price

of $109 a year.  My best update deal of all my stuff.  Jeppesen is the worst

deal for my gps & mx20.

Tim



[quote] --

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