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aldaniels(at)fmtc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

This gets heated, and depends on who you talk to. My understanding is 

Dan Denning and Dean Wilson started together and made the Kitfox. Dean 

did much of the design work. They ended up parting ways and both making 

much the same airplane. The major difference came when the new owner 

took the design of the Kitfix Model 5 to the next level,  which was 

extensively engineered to meet the proposed new certification. I do not 

think Avid made the engineering commitment, but I am not sure. I have 

talked with both men, and found them both to be fascinating. I think 

they needed each other to make a good plane and start the company, but 

both are very independent. Dan Denning is the can do visionary promoter 

and Dean was the designer/ engineer that could make it work. So which 

started first, Kitfox did, which was much Dean's design, who started 

Avid after striking out on his own. I was not there so this is just my 

understanding from being on the edges. I am sure there are others that 

can tell how they saw it, but the how and why of the start and split is 

probably only know to them, and each has his own version. Both men have 

gone on the make some really cool stuff. Thunder Mustang and now a 

really neat ATV and other stuff for Dan and several new airplane designs 

for Dean. IMHO these two men really started the Kit airplane movement as 

we know it, and for that I thank them.



Sid Hausding wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Ahem, excuse me Jeff,

   

  The Kitfox is derived directly from the Avid design...............just for your info.

   

  Sid

  Speedwing N204S

   

  -----------------------------------do not archive              

   

  



JeffFowler(at)aol.com wrote:

  



Thanks Ron & Louis for the help on the cargo pod info. I didn't know the 

Avid Flyer used the same unit. It does make sense though because of their 

lineage.



Jeff Fowler





"Why can't we all just get along?"

		

---------------------------------

jopatco(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Could not help but comment on this tread. 

Back in the primordial swirls of time1981 as I recall, Dean Wilson was in

the hospital recovering from a minor accident when Dan Denny (Dan and Dean

were married to cousins), came to see Dean with the idea of designing an

ultra light. Dean was already established as a designer, so soon Dean came

up with the Avid Flyer. The prototype AF99 was a tri-- gear as Dan was not

tail wheel efficient at the time. The plane was too heavy to qualify as an

ultra light, but created great interest in the experimental world. Dean won

Best New Design at OSH in 1982.

With Dean the designer and Dan the promoter the little plane took off and

was soon selling well. Soon problems developed as Dean was very having

trouble with Dan's business practices, so the two decided to part company.

As Dean tells it they sat down in a restaurant and drew up a agreement

wherein Dan agreed not to compete by building a plane like the Avid Flyer.

The problem was the agreement was not drawn up by a lawyer so when Dan

started making Kitfox, Dean took him to court only to have the judge throw

out the agreement. 

I first flew the KF series 1 with Dan in1983. It was an Avid with cosmetic

changes. 

I ultimately worked for both men and it is a interesting story, too big for

this list. 

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Alan & Linda Daniels <aldaniels(at)fmtc.com>

 To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 3/4/2006 12:15:10 AM

 Subject: Re: Avid/Kitfox

<aldaniels(at)fmtc.com>

 	  Quote: 	

 This gets heated, and depends on who you talk to. My understanding is 

 Dan Denning and Dean Wilson started together and made the Kitfox. Dean 

 did much of the design work. They ended up parting ways and both making 

 much the same airplane. The major difference came when the new owner 

 took the design of the Kitfix Model 5 to the next level,  which was 

 extensively engineered to meet the proposed new certification. I do not 

 think Avid made the engineering commitment, but I am not sure. I have 

 talked with both men, and found them both to be fascinating. I think 

 they needed each other to make a good plane and start the company, but 

 both are very independent. Dan Denning is the can do visionary promoter 

 and Dean was the designer/ engineer that could make it work. So which 

 started first, Kitfox did, which was much Dean's design, who started 

 Avid after striking out on his own. I was not there so this is just my 

 understanding from being on the edges. I am sure there are others that 

 can tell how they saw it, but the how and why of the start and split is 

 probably only know to them, and each has his own version. Both men have 

 gone on the make some really cool stuff. Thunder Mustang and now a 

 really neat ATV and other stuff for Dan and several new airplane designs 

 for Dean. IMHO these two men really started the Kit airplane movement as 

 we know it, and for that I thank them.

 Sid Hausding wrote:

 >

 >

 >Ahem, excuse me Jeff,

 >   

 >  The Kitfox is derived directly from the Avid design...............just

for your info.

 	  Quote: 	
		   >   

 >  Sid

 >  Speedwing N204S

 >   

 >  -----------------------------------do not archive              

 >   

 >  

 >

 >JeffFowler(at)aol.com wrote:

 >  

 >

 >Thanks Ron & Louis for the help on the cargo pod info. I didn't know the 

 >Avid Flyer used the same unit. It does make sense though because of

their 

 	  Quote: 	
		   >lineage.

 >

 >Jeff Fowler

 >

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 >

 >

 >"Why can't we all just get along?"

 >		

 >---------------------------------

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

 	  Quote: 	
		  My understanding is Dan Denning and Dean Wilson started together and 

made the Kitfox.


	


Nope.  The airplane that Dan Denney (not "Denning") and Dean Wilson 

designed together was called the "Avid Flyer."  It was equipped with 

a nosewheel and a Cessna-style cowling that closely resembled 

later-model Avids.  Some time after the two split, Denney 

experimented with a radial engine and designed the now-famous round 

cowling.  The engine didn't work out but the round look was a big hit.



Even by the early 1990s when I bought my Kitfox Model IV, the two 

designs had diverged noticeably and Avid was offering an amphibian 

(the Catalina?) and the much larger Magnum, in addition to the 

original Avid Flyer.



The impression I got when shopping for my kit (and this is just my 

personal opinion!) was that while Avid had spread their energy over 

the development of several product lines that appealed to buyers with 

different needs, Denney/SkyStar had spent their time refining the 

original design.



Mike G.

N728KF

aldaniels(at)fmtc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Thanks John. You were much closer to the situation than I was. I got my 

information after the fact and I am sure from different points of view.  

I think the original point was that both the Avid and the Kitfox started 

out as the same plane, whatever it was called.

I don't know if people on the list really appreciate how fortunate we 

are to have John Larsen on this list. Its hard to tell who really knows 

what they are talking about on an e-mail list, but John has been there 

and done it when it comes to this type of airplane. He has been there 

from the beginning and I hope stays involved for a long time. I hope we 

can prod him into giving us the benefit of more of  his experiences. 

IMHO there is no story John can write that is too big for this list.

Alan

JOHN LARSEN wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Could not help but comment on this tread. 

Back in the primordial swirls of time1981 as I recall, Dean Wilson was in

the hospital recovering from a minor accident when Dan Denny (Dan and Dean

were married to cousins), came to see Dean with the idea of designing an

ultra light. Dean was already established as a designer, so soon Dean came

up with the Avid Flyer. The prototype AF99 was a tri-- gear as Dan was not

tail wheel efficient at the time. The plane was too heavy to qualify as an

ultra light, but created great interest in the experimental world. Dean won

Best New Design at OSH in 1982.

With Dean the designer and Dan the promoter the little plane took off and

was soon selling well. Soon problems developed as Dean was very having

trouble with Dan's business practices, so the two decided to part company.

As Dean tells it they sat down in a restaurant and drew up a agreement

wherein Dan agreed not to compete by building a plane like the Avid Flyer.

The problem was the agreement was not drawn up by a lawyer so when Dan

started making Kitfox, Dean took him to court only to have the judge throw

out the agreement. 

I first flew the KF series 1 with Dan in1983. It was an Avid with cosmetic

changes. 

I ultimately worked for both men and it is a interesting story, too big for

this list. 

>[

>

> 

>

>    

> 

> 

> 

>    

>

jopatco(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Awww Shucks, you make me feel  embarrassed.  Thanks for the kudo.

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Alan & Linda Daniels <aldaniels(at)fmtc.com>

 To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 3/4/2006 9:56:56 AM

 Subject: Re: Re: Avid/Kitfox



 

<aldaniels(at)fmtc.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Thanks John. You were much closer to the situation than I was. I got my 

 information after the fact and I am sure from different points of view.  

 I think the original point was that both the Avid and the Kitfox started 

 out as the same plane, whatever it was called.



 I don't know if people on the list really appreciate how fortunate we 

 are to have John Larsen on this list. Its hard to tell who really knows 

 what they are talking about on an e-mail list, but John has been there 

 and done it when it comes to this type of airplane. He has been there 

 from the beginning and I hope stays involved for a long time. I hope we 

 can prod him into giving us the benefit of more of  his experiences. 

 IMHO there is no story John can write that is too big for this list.



 Alan



 JOHN LARSEN wrote:



 >

 >

 >Could not help but comment on this tread. 

 >Back in the primordial swirls of time1981 as I recall, Dean Wilson was in

 >the hospital recovering from a minor accident when Dan Denny (Dan and

Dean
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >were married to cousins), came to see Dean with the idea of designing an

 >ultra light. Dean was already established as a designer, so soon Dean

came
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >up with the Avid Flyer. The prototype AF99 was a tri-- gear as Dan was

not
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >tail wheel efficient at the time. The plane was too heavy to qualify as

an
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >ultra light, but created great interest in the experimental world. Dean

won
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >Best New Design at OSH in 1982.

 >With Dean the designer and Dan the promoter the little plane took off and

 >was soon selling well. Soon problems developed as Dean was very having

 >trouble with Dan's business practices, so the two decided to part

company.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >As Dean tells it they sat down in a restaurant and drew up a agreement

 >wherein Dan agreed not to compete by building a plane like the Avid

Flyer.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >The problem was the agreement was not drawn up by a lawyer so when Dan

 >started making Kitfox, Dean took him to court only to have the judge

throw
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >out the agreement. 

 >I first flew the KF series 1 with Dan in1983. It was an Avid with

cosmetic
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >changes. 

 >I ultimately worked for both men and it is a interesting story, too big

for
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   >this list. 

 >

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jopatco(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Hi;

Yes you are right. Dean would work with a design until he found interest in

new one, and then the first design would be off his radar screen. I

designed the MK IV Avid as the C Model, its predecessor, needed an  upgrade

and Dean was off on the Explorer project. He was obviously better qualified

but had lost interest. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 3/4/2006 9:55:17 AM

 Subject: Re: Avid/Kitfox



 



 >My understanding is Dan Denning and Dean Wilson started together and 

 >made the Kitfox.



 Nope.  The airplane that Dan Denney (not "Denning") and Dean Wilson 

 designed together was called the "Avid Flyer."  It was equipped with 

 a nosewheel and a Cessna-style cowling that closely resembled 

 later-model Avids.  Some time after the two split, Denney 

 experimented with a radial engine and designed the now-famous round 

 cowling.  The engine didn't work out but the round look was a big hit.



 Even by the early 1990s when I bought my Kitfox Model IV, the two 

 designs had diverged noticeably and Avid was offering an amphibian 

 (the Catalina?) and the much larger Magnum, in addition to the 

 original Avid Flyer.



 The impression I got when shopping for my kit (and this is just my 

 personal opinion!) was that while Avid had spread their energy over 

 the development of several product lines that appealed to buyers with 

 different needs, Denney/SkyStar had spent their time refining the 

 original design.



 Mike G.

 N728KF

aldaniels(at)fmtc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Sorry about the typo, I knew better.



Alan



Michael Gibbs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  -



Nope.  The airplane that Dan Denney (not "Denning")

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

An inatertesting tidbit.  Here in Cameron Park we had a man - a minister / 

missionary - that would spend three months here and then three months in 

Africa tending his flock there.  He mentioned that he was about 15 miles 

from an airport that took over an hour by auto, as I recall.  He needed 

something that would give him more mobility and had Dean Wilson design a 

bi-plane for him.  It was a very interesting design.



It was designed for heavy hauling and the cargo door was sufficiently large 

for a 55 gal drum to be inserted. It also had flaperons on the lower wings, 

witth flaps on the upper wings that were convigured like slats on a venetion 

blind.  It took on the nickname the Venetion Blind .



It was the test flying of his airplane that caused the uproar that 

essentilly closed Cameron Park to test flying experimantal aircraft.  After 

flying off the 40 hours I helped him load it into a shipping container where 

it was shipped to Africa.  The last I heard of it it was damaged in a 

landing and waiting parts.  The missionary owner died in the crash of his 

Robinson Exec - it threw a main rotor blade - also intended for use in 

Africa.



I will post an image on sportflight. 

http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=view&epoch=1141530988



Lowell



---

aldaniels(at)fmtc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Several years ago Dean Wilson was the guest speaker at our EAA 837 

banquet. He was involved in helping one of our members with the Mifyter 

bi-plane. It was very interesting to say the least. I wish we had 

recorded it. It was amazing how many planes and projects he had been 

involved in. From ag spray planes to sea planes. I tried to buy a kit 

for his elliptical wing plane but he was closing that down and doing 

something else. We got to see drawings of the some of the projects and 

stories about the French adventurer and the planes he built for him, and 

about the TV show that was done with it. One of the things my wife and I 

like most about this experimental airplane stuff is the really good and 

amazing people we meet through it.



Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



An inatertesting tidbit.  Here in Cameron Park we had a man - a minister / 

missionary - that would spend three months here and then three months in 

Africa tending his flock there.  He mentioned that he was about 15 miles 

from an airport that took over an hour by auto, as I recall.  He needed 

something that would give him more mobility and had Dean Wilson design a

mricher(at)LINKNY.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Does anyone out in kitfox land know the Skyraider plane fits into the Avid/Kitfox story ?

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

I think I remember talking to the fellow at Oshkosh and he said he had worked for the Avid factory at one point. 

   

  Most of the "newer" designs coming out lately are all upgrades of the original Avid.  If you note the addresses on most of the new companies and aircraft designs in this category and size, you will find a majority are from the Boise, Caldwell areas of Idaho, which is the site of the original Avid and Kitfox factories........  2 + 2 in my book, means most of are displaced factory workers with better improvements, but at the cost of more weight and more cost.  Keeping the earlier Kitfox and Avid models to the factory designed weight is the key to their economy and thrilling performance.................IMO.

  Sid

  Speedwing

  ----------------------------------------

   

  



Chet & Marylu Richer <mricher(at)> wrote:

  



Does anyone out in kitfox land know the Skyraider plane fits into the Avid/Kitfox story ?



"Why can't we all just get along?"

			

---------------------------------

 Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Sid,  I couldn't agree with you more.  I think of it almost like the 

Original Ford Thunderbird and what it evolved into.  I am aware that others 

will strongly disagree and that is good too.



Lowell



---

jdmcbean(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Chet & Marylu,

	This is my understanding from when I worked at SkyStar... Kenny Schrader,

owner and founder of Skyraider, worked at SkyStar aircraft.  He was working

on an ultralight design of his own and when developed offered it to SkyStar.

At the time SkyStar wasn't too interested in a single seat ultralight.

Shortly after that Skystar developed the Kitfox Lite which was initially a

Skyraider fuselage (bought from Skyraider) with Kitfox designed wing and

flaperons.



I'm sure there is more to the story... there always is.  Kenny was a great

guy and fun to be around.  He died doing what he loved.. flying his

Skyraider low and slow and reports at the time said he was spotting

Coyotes...



Flying K is Skyraider renamed owned by Kenny's father-in-law and Ridge

Runner is another derivative of the Skyraider that is owned by Kenny's

brother.

Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

www.sportplanellc.com

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"



--

jdmcbean(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Sid,

	I think you are correct... We have been doing that for 2 years now... The

key is to keep the weight as light as possible...



Just for conversation.. where does one draw the line ??



Fly Safe !!

John McBean

www.sportplanellc.com

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"



--

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

I still own the Avid/Kitfox prototype N99AF,and consequently found this 

thread pretty interesting.



 If you check out the old posting 

http://www.sportflight.com/uploads/avid1.jpg you will see the early Light 

Aero (Avid) brochure with Dan Denney sitting in the Avid prototype.  That 

pretty much proves who was first, as Denney didn't start Kitfox until after 

leaving Avid.  The 1st Avid flew in the fall of '82.  Another interesting 

twist to the story if I recall correctly is that John McBean's father was 

involved in N99AF's first flights.  Small world sometimes, isn't it.



One of my personal goals is to one day get the Avid/Kitfox prototype into a 

museum (EAA?).  But I'm not ready to donate it away quite yet, but maybe 

that will one day change.  As much as it impacted the world of recreational 

flying, it certainly deserves it's place in history, and a little more 

recognition.  It is a timeless design that is sure to outlive all of us, and 

was a trendsetter in personal aviation if there ever was one.  I'm pretty 

convinced if you count all of the copies/derivatives that it has to be one 

of the most copied light aircraft design in history.  Let's see, besides the 

various Kitfox models, there is the Raven, Mohawk, Montana Coyote, 

Highlander, Escapade, Eurofox, Skyfox Gazelle, Bushbaby, SkyRaider, Ridge 

Runner, Airdale, etc, etc.  And how many more am I missing?



Gee, has a Piper Cub been copied as much?

Paul Seehafer





---

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Paul,

  another beer at Oshkosh, too.

  Sid

  -------------------------------------------



Paul Seehafer <wrote:

  



I still own the Avid/Kitfox prototype N99AF,and consequently found this 

thread pretty interesting.



If you check out the old posting 

http://www.sportflight.com/uploads/avid1.jpg you will see the early Light 

Aero (Avid) brochure with Dan Denney sitting in the Avid prototype. That 

pretty much proves who was first, as Denney didn't start Kitfox until after 

leaving Avid. The 1st Avid flew in the fall of '82. Another interesting 

twist to the story if I recall correctly is that John McBean's father was 

involved in N99AF's first flights. Small world sometimes, isn't it.



One of my personal goals is to one day get the Avid/Kitfox prototype into a 

museum (EAA?). But I'm not ready to donate it away quite yet, but maybe 

that will one day change. As much as it impacted the world of recreational 

flying, it certainly deserves it's place in history, and a little more 

recognition. It is a timeless design that is sure to outlive all of us, and 

was a trendsetter in personal aviation if there ever was one. I'm pretty 

convinced if you count all of the copies/derivatives that it has to be one 

of the most copied light aircraft design in history. Let's see, besides the 

various Kitfox models, there is the Raven, Mohawk, Montana Coyote, 

Highlander, Escapade, Eurofox, Skyfox Gazelle, Bushbaby, SkyRaider, Ridge 

Runner, Airdale, etc, etc. And how many more am I missing?



Gee, has a Piper Cub been copied as much?

Paul Seehafer





---

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Anyway, he (?) worked for someone that had the design and idea first............Dean, probably.  So, from there, its all afterwards................keep up the good (no, great) work of offering aftermarket products and pieces for the Kitfox and Avid.........

  Sid

  just sold my Speedwing, and regret ever having to be forced into that.............AVIDS and Kitfoxes forever.

  -----------------

   

  



jdmcbean <jdmcbean(at) wrote:

  



Sid,

I think you are correct... We have been doing that for 2 years now... The

key is to keep the weight as light as possible...



Just for conversation.. where does one draw the line ??



Fly Safe !!

John McBean

www.sportplanellc.com

"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"



--

aaaron(at)tvp.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Hi Sid

Sorry to hear you sold your Avid.  If you ever get down to Australia

you're welcome to come flying with me anytime!

Allan 



  Sid

  just sold my Speedwing, and regret ever having to be forced into

that.............AVIDS and Kitfoxes forever.

jdmcbean(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Sid,

	If I make it.. I'll join you again... Been a few years..



Fly Safe !!

John McBean

www.sportplanellc.com

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"



--

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: Avid/Kitfox

Sid,



Just because you are Avid-less for the moment doesn't mean we can't still 

drink beer together at Oshkosh.  I hope to see you there again this year.



Paul



do not archive



---

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