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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:22 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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How much further forward should the main tires end up after this?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>
Moving the main gear forward is very simple. You do not more the gear where it attaches to the fuselage you just angle it forward with a FLOX wedge. On my TR1 I unbolted the main gear and dropped it down. Then I made two small wood blocks about 3/8" thick to use as spacers. I placed these on the trailing edge of the main gear center section and test bolted the gear in place now angled forward due to the spacers. Remove and adjust as needed. When I was happy with the new wheel location I lowered the gear again, covered it with packing tape for a release, piled FLOX on the top of the gear and bolted it in place with the spacers holding the angle. This took me about 3 hours total.
Some may be thinking that having the gear angled forward will put more stress on the attachment. Actually the opposite is true. On landing there are two main forces, the vertical load due to the rate of decent and the horizontal load due to the rapid spin up of the wheels. This horizontal load is the main stress on the attachment and is reduced due to the forward angle.
Mark
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: “.... composite props and rain don't mix very well....”
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
==================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
[quote][b]
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Galin,
Catto has made some improvements to his prop and he has addedan optional nickel metal leading edge which should eliminate any issues with the rain. There are photos of the updated prop on his website. http://www.cattoprops.com/
Not sure what his lead time is now but worth a look see.
Bob
PS: Once you get the nose gear off please take some photos and post for us to see.
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>
Hello Galin,
I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.
I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the nose gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built the main gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nose gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Currently the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at mid aft CG. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actually if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should almost or even stay there.
Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you have done it. And so will your nose gear.
Mark
--
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:13 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Mark,
What is the best location for the TR-1? Inches from firewall?
Tim
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:20 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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As an add on to the Catto prop possibility.
M T Propeller http://www.mt-propeller.com/index.htm makes several different composite props both fixed and constant speed with leading edge protection. A couple of models are electric constant speed.
also
Aero Composites Inc. http://www.aerocomposites.com/ has several different 2 and 3 blade composite props which are worth a look.
Both of the above are a bit more expensive than the Catto prop or at least they were when I did my research. Each has also come out with new models and upgrades since then.
Bob
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Galin,
Catto has made some improvements to his prop and he has added an optional nickel metal leading edge which should eliminate any issues with the rain. There are photos of the updated prop on his website. http://www.cattoprops.com/
Not sure what his lead time is now but worth a look see.
Bob
PS: Once you get the nose gear off please take some photos and post for us to see.
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>
Hello Galin,
I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.
I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the nose gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built the main gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nose gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Currently the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at mid aft CG. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actually if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should almost or even stay there.
Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you have done it. And so will your nose gear.
Mark
--
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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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As a rough estimate the main wheels should be about 6 inches aft of the aft CG. This is based on the contact point being 10 degrees aft of the CG location (in 2D side view draw a line from the CG down to the ground but angled 10 deg aft). So if you push your tail to the ground when loaded to the aft CG and you can tilt the plane 10 degrees tail down then the plane will balance at that point.
Mark
--
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:41 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Hi Galin,
The whirlwind ground adjustable props are approved for rain and dirt strips. They have a nickel leading edge. People on the vans site say to expect about a 20lb weight savings over a metal prop and a few knots.
Are you concidering any engine modifications during the overhaul? Having the heads ported and flow matched is pretty common these days even on certified engines. I run ported/balanced heads and 10:1 forged pistons in my 360 which combined is worth 8-10% more power for a given fuel flow and they modified the case so oil sprays on the back of the piston to cool them. Skydynamics makes a high lift rocker arm kit that I do not have. I usually do not run my engine over 180 HP, so the point of the mods is power/efficiency at altitude and during hot/high takeoffs.
It may seem risky to deviate from the lycoming standard, but a 360 with fuel injection, ported heads and 10:1 pistons has been the standard homebuilt build from performance shops like Lycon in CA for about 10 years now.
Anyhow, food for thought..
Scott
On Jul 24, 2014, at 5:46 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICHaluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>
Hello Galin,
I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.
I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the nose gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built the main gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nose gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Currently the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at mid aft CG. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actually if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should almost or even stay there.
Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you have done it. And so will your nose gear.
Mark
--
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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I may just have to fly down to your place and do it there. 
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>
As a rough estimate the main wheels should be about 6 inches aft of the aft CG. This is based on the contact point being 10 degrees aft of the CG location (in 2D side view draw a line from the CG down to the ground but angled 10 deg aft). So if you push your tail to the ground when loaded to the aft CG and you can tilt the plane 10 degrees tail down then the plane will balance at that point.
Mark
--
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it have a particular model number/designation?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] 7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: “.... composite props and rain don't mix very well....”
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
==================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Galin,
Catto didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom based on engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also included desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blade out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his props.
I looked at Prince and can't remember why I excluded them but it seems that their prop wasn't rated for the Lycoming 360 engine at that time. I also looked at MT Props but they were a bit on the expensive side as I recall. I really liked their electric constant speed option though and would probably have gone with that if money weren't a primary concern.
Hope that helps,
Bob
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it have a particular model number/designation?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] 7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: “.... composite props and rain don't mix very well....”
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
==================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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http://www.matro://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.==========
[b]
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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THANKS for the info Bob.
Is anybody running a fixed pitch composite 3 bladed prop on a TR-4? I want some basic inputs from actual use before I make a decision. MT, Prince and even Sensenich are high on my list.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote] Galin,
Catto didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom based on engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also included desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blade out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his props.
I looked at Prince and can't remember why I excluded them but it seems that their prop wasn't rated for the Lycoming 360 engine at that time. I also looked at MT Props but they were a bit on the expensive side as I recall. I really liked their electric constant speed option though and would probably have gone with that if money weren't a primary concern.
Hope that helps,
Bob
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it have a particular model number/designation?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | 7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: “.... composite props and rain don't mix very well....”
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
==================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
http://www.matro://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.==========
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| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Galin,
You might talk to Scott Stearns, he had a Prince prop on his carbon TR-1C with a 220 HP O-360 and has changed to a different prop. A friend got a three blade Catto for his RV7 that took six months to get but he likes it. The Prince P-Tip is not the most efficient design and I'm sure you know that two blades are more efficient than three, as Bob mentioned, assuming you have ground clearance. I also believe that MT has a mandatory 10 yr. overhaul on it's adjustable props. That cost allot also.
Tim
From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
THANKS for the info Bob.
Is anybody running a fixed pitch composite 3 bladed prop on a TR-4? I want some basic inputs from actual use before I make a decision. MT, Prince and even Sensenich are high on my list.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Galin,
Catto didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom based on engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also included desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blade out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his props.
I looked at Prince and can't remember why I excluded them but it seems that their prop wasn't rated for the Lycoming 360 engine at that time. I also looked at MT Props but they were a bit on the expensive side as I recall. I really liked their electric constant speed option though and would probably have gone with that if money weren't a primary concern.
Hope that helps,
Bob
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it have a particular model number/designation?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | 7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: “.... composite props and rain don't mix very well....”
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
==================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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I contacted CATTO Props today but they are all at OSH so if somebody gets to talk to them ask about a 3 bladed composite for a KIS4 with Lycoming O360 180HP engine.
Now for the ongoing nose gear saga:
It turns out the rear pin on the nose gear assembly sheared which caused the gear to collapse. The shear was clean and it was obvious (corrosion) the pin had started breaking well before the failure. It sheared right where the "H" bracket meets the firewall bracket and this explains why the visual inspection done during the annual did not find it. To see the problem happening you have to remove the pin there is no other way to inspect the area. I recommend everyone pull and check their rear "H" bracket pin to see if they are experiencing the same issue or not. If you do please let us know what your find, good or bad, so if there is a trend we can identify it.
I plan to pull and inspect the new pin after 50hr or 50 landing (whichever comes first) and at the annual. If I experience a bad shimmy at any time (due to over grease or lack of friction) I will pull and inspect the pin since this places a lot of stress on that specific part of that pin. After a few inspections I will decide if it needs to be inspected on a continuous basis or I just got a bad pin. I am also contemplating having the new pin made from steel instead of aluminum even with the dissimilar metal corrosion issue. Steel or aluminum I will do the above inspections no matter what the pin is eventually made from.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:
[quote] Galin,
You might talk to Scott Stearns, he had a Prince prop on his carbon TR-1C with a 220 HP O-360 and has changed to a different prop. A friend got a three blade Catto for his RV7 that took six months to get but he likes it. The Prince P-Tip is not the most efficient design and I'm sure you know that two blades are more efficient than three, as Bob mentioned, assuming you have ground clearance. I also believe that MT has a mandatory 10 yr. overhaul on it's adjustable props. That cost allot also.
Tim
From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
THANKS for the info Bob.
Is anybody running a fixed pitch composite 3 bladed prop on a TR-4? I want some basic inputs from actual use before I make a decision. MT, Prince and even Sensenich are high on my list.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Galin,
Catto didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom based on engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also included desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blade out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his props.
I looked at Prince and can't remember why I excluded them but it seems that their prop wasn't rated for the Lycoming 360 engine at that time. I also looked at MT Props but they were a bit on the expensive side as I recall. I really liked their electric constant speed option though and would probably have gone with that if money weren't a primary concern.
Hope that helps,
Bob
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it have a particular model number/designation?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | 7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: “.... composite props and rain don't mix very well....”
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
==================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
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fredorosa(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Galin,
I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean by the rear pin. My H bracket connects to the firewall brackets with two bolts.
Al
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:38 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I contacted CATTO Props today but they are all at OSH so if somebody gets to talk to them ask about a 3 bladed composite for a KIS4 with Lycoming O360 180HP engine.
Now for the ongoing nose gear saga:
It turns out the rear pin on the nose gear assembly sheared which caused the gear to collapse. The shear was clean and it was obvious (corrosion) the pin had started breaking well before the failure. It sheared right where the "H" bracket meets the firewall bracket and this explains why the visual inspection done during the annual did not find it. To see the problem happening you have to remove the pin there is no other way to inspect the area. I recommend everyone pull and check their rear "H" bracket pin to see if they are experiencing the same issue or not. If you do please let us know what your find, good or bad, so if there is a trend we can identify it.
I plan to pull and inspect the new pin after 50hr or 50 landing (whichever comes first) and at the annual. If I experience a bad shimmy at any time (due to over grease or lack of friction)I will pull and inspect the pin since this places a lot of stresson that specific part of that pin. After a few inspections I will decide if it needs to be inspected on a continuous basis or I just got a bad pin. I am also contemplating having the new pin made from steel instead of aluminum even with the dissimilar metal corrosion issue. Steel or aluminum I will do the above inspections no matter what the pin is eventually made from.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Galin,
You might talk to Scott Stearns, he had a Prince prop on his carbon TR-1C with a 220 HP O-360 and has changed to a different prop. A friend got a three blade Catto for his RV7 that took six months to get but he likes it. The Prince P-Tip is not the most efficient design and I'm sure you know that two blades are more efficient than three, as Bob mentioned, assuming you have ground clearance. I also believe that MT has a mandatory 10 yr. overhaul on it's adjustable props. That cost allot also.
Tim
From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
THANKS for the info Bob.
Is anybody running a fixed pitch composite 3 bladed prop on a TR-4? I want some basic inputs from actual use before I make a decision. MT, Prince and even Sensenich are high on my list.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Galin,
Catto didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom based on engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also included desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blade out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his props.
I looked at Prince and can't remember why I excluded them but it seems that their prop wasn't rated for the Lycoming 360 engine at that time. I also looked at MT Props but they were a bit on the expensive side as I recall. I really liked their electric constant speed option though and would probably have gone with that if money weren't a primary concern.
Hope that helps,
Bob
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it have a particular model number/designation?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | 7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: “.... composite props and rain don't mix very well....”
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
==================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
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fasilpereira
Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:55 am Post subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Galin,
Looking at your website I can see that you have removed the pin when you had the broken exhaust issue. Am I right?
Couldn't you see the pin damage at that time?
Did you installed a new pin? If not, do you think that the pin may have been damaged due to hot exhaust blast?
Fabricio
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Fabricio Pereira
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:55 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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I replaced the old pin with a new one after the exhaust problem. It was the new one that failed after only 110hrs and 115 landings.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 7:55 AM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)>
Galin,
Looking at your website I can see that you have removed the pin when you had the broken exhaust issue. Am I right?
Couldn't you see the pin damage at that time?
Did you installed a new pin? If not, do you think that the pin may have been damaged due to hot exhaust blast?
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427694#427694
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:04 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Al; Here is a photo of the "H" bracket where you can see the rear aluminum
pin just underneath the fuselage.
Can you send a photo of your set up? I wonder if they changed the design
and now use 2 steel bolts instead of one aluminum pin. This would really
strengthen the point where the "H" bracket connect to the firewall brackets
which is what I was thinking with my idea of a steel pin.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] Galin,
I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean by the rear pin
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:04 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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Al: Can you send a photo of your set up? I wonder if they changed the
design and now use 2 steel bolts instead of one aluminum pin. This would
really strengthen the point where the "H" bracket connect to the firewall
brackets which is what I was thinking with my idea of a steel pin.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] Al; Here is a photo of the "H" bracket where you can see the rear aluminum
pin just underneath the fuselage.
Can you send a photo of your set up? I wonder if they changed the design
and now use 2 steel bolts instead of one aluminum pin. This would really
strengthen the point where the "H" bracket connect to the firewall brackets
which is what I was thinking with my idea of a steel pin.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Galin,
> I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean by the rear
> pin. My H bracket connects to the firewall brackets with two bolts.
> Al
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:38 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I contacted CATTO Props today but they are all at OSH so if somebody gets
> to talk to them ask about a 3 bladed composite for a KIS4 with Lycoming
> O360 180HP engine.
>
> Now for the ongoing nose gear saga:
> It turns out the rear pin on the nose gear assembly sheared which caused
> the gear to collapse. The shear was clean and it was obvious (corrosion)
> the pin had started breaking well before the failure. It sheared right
> where the "H" bracket meets the firewall bracket and this explains why the
> visual inspection done during the annual did not find it. To see the
> problem happening you have to remove the pin there is no other way to
> inspect the area. I recommend everyone pull and check their rear "H"
> bracket pin to see if they are experiencing the same issue or not. If you
> do please let us know what your find, good or bad, so if there is a trend
> we can identify it.
>
> I plan to pull and inspect the new pin after 50hr or 50 landing
> (whichever comes first) and at the annual. If I experience a bad shimmy at
> any time (due to over grease or lack of friction) I will pull and inspect
> the pin since this places a lot of stress on that specific part of that
> pin. After a few inspections I will decide if it needs to be inspected on a
> continuous basis or I just got a bad pin. I am also contemplating having
> the new pin made from steel instead of aluminum even with the dissimilar
> metal corrosion issue. Steel or aluminum I will do the above inspections no
> matter what the pin is eventually made from.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Galin,
>>
>> You might talk to Scott Stearns, he had a Prince prop on his carbon
>> TR-1C with a 220 HP O-360 and has changed to a different prop. A friend got
>> a three blade Catto for his RV7 that took six months to get but he likes
>> it. The Prince P-Tip is not the most efficient design and I'm sure you know
>> that two blades are more efficient than three, as Bob mentioned, assuming
>> you have ground clearance. I also believe that MT has a mandatory 10 yr
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fredorosa(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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|
Galin, I'm out of town and can't send pictures till I get back in 10 days. My H does connect to the firewall brackets with two short AN bolts which are almost impossible to break.
Don't remember if that was the design or my beefing up mod.
Sent from my iPhone
[quote] On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Al; Here is a photo of the "H" bracket where you can see the rear aluminum pin just underneath the fuselage.
Can you send a photo of your set up? I wonder if they changed the design and now use 2 steel bolts instead of one aluminum pin. This would really strengthen the point where the "H" bracket connect to the firewall brackets which is what I was thinking with my idea of a steel pin.
> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Galin,
> I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean by the rear pin. My H bracket connects to the firewall brackets with two bolts.
> Al
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:38 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I contacted CATTO Props today but they are all at OSH so if somebody gets to talk to them ask about a 3 bladed composite for a KIS4 with Lycoming O360 180HP engine.
>>
>> Now for the ongoing nose gear saga:
>> It turns out the rear pin on the nose gear assembly sheared which caused the gear to collapse. The shear was clean and it was obvious (corrosion) the pin had started breaking well before the failure. It sheared right where the "H" bracket meets the firewall bracket and this explains why the visual inspection done during the annual did not find it. To see the problem happening you have to remove the pin there is no other way to inspect the area. I recommend everyone pull and check their rear "H" bracket pin to see if they are experiencing the same issue or not. If you do please let us know what your find, good or bad, so if there is a trend we can identify it.
>>
>> I plan to pull and inspect the new pin after 50hr or 50 landing (whichever comes first) and at the annual. If I experience a bad shimmy at any time (due to over grease or lack of friction) I will pull and inspect the pin since this places a lot of stress on that specific part of that pin. After a few inspections I will decide if it needs to be inspected on a continuous basis or I just got a bad pin. I am also contemplating having the new pin made from steel instead of aluminum even with the dissimilar metal corrosion issue. Steel or aluminum I will do the above inspections no matter what the pin is eventually made from.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> wrote:
>>> Galin,
>>>
>>> You might talk to Scott Stearns, he had a Prince prop on his carbon TR-1C with a 220 HP O-360 and has changed to a different prop. A friend got a three blade Catto for his RV7 that took six months to get but he likes it. The Prince P-Tip is not the most efficient design and I'm sure you know that two blades are more efficient than three, as Bob mentioned, assuming you have ground clearance. I also believe that MT has a mandatory 10 yr. overhaul on it's adjustable props. That cost allot also.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM
>>> To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>>>
>>> THANKS for the info Bob.
>>>
>>> Is anybody running a fixed pitch composite 3 bladed prop on a TR-4? I want some basic inputs from actual use before I make a decision. MT, Prince and even Sensenich are high on my list.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:
>>>> Galin,
>>>>
>>>> Catto didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom based on engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also included desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blade out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his props
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:36 am Post subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
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If it was your idea I think you made a wise decision.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] Galin, I'm out of town and can't send pictures till I get back in 10 days
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