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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

In a message dated 6/30/06 9:41:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

Hopperdhh(at)aol.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Blow 

  some air on it and it will run cooler at the same current.  Almost any  

  failure mode will be less at a lower temperature.

   

  Dan Hopper

  RV-7A

==================================
	


Dan:



You are 100% correct.  Cooling is very essential and I did forget to mention 

that.  AND I should have know better, just last year a new alternator (Nippon) 

in an RV-6A failed for lack of cooling.  I added a blast tube and haven't had 

a problem since.

 Thanks for adding to the list. 



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

In a message dated 6/30/06 10:09:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Barry,

    I work on auto electrical systems every day. I take exception with 

  your opinion that OEM parts are all junk. Some manufacturers have cut 

  back on parts quality. They are used in by only certain 

  manufacturers. They are the ones you hear being on the verge of 

  bankruptcy on the TV news.

==================================
	


Charlie:



You are correct, I use to do QA/QC & SPC for the manufacture you are talking 

about.  And I can give you a case in point:

As an auto mechanic have you ever noticed that the ORIGINAL sepertine Belt or 

the ORIGINAL timing belts always last longer?  They tell you to replace them 

at 60,000 miles but many original belts go 80,000 to 90,000 miles!  That is 

original FACTORY installed equipment.  Not necessarily OEM that is sold over the 

counter at dealers.  So, when you purchase the Dealer OEM you never seem to 

get the same life?  Remember FORD with the Dual Spark Plugs per cylinder; just 

like our planes?  Well, they have SPECIAL FACTORY spark plugs.  You would get 

the life and gas milage with the Factory installed ones, but not with the 

Dealer OEM.  It was done this way to meet warrenty and government requirements.  

Yet the requirements only had to last untill the warrenty was up.   



The saying on the wall was:  "If you can't design in controlled failure, you 

have to design out longevity."



Why do you think MTBF became important?

Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

On Jun 30, 2006, at 8:18 AM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com (FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Brian:

Someone is feeding you a bunch of bunk!  

	


Uh, no.



 	  Quote: 	
		  DON'T SPREAD THE BUNK!

Hot rated ... MADE UP NONSENSE!

	


Uh, no. Please do your homework. I have.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The same companies that make automotive alternators make aircraft 

alternators.  For example: 

1972 Ford Pickup with A/C (61 amp), as this is what the DOFF-xxxxx P/N 

crosses to in the Ford books.

DOFF-10300J AL12-F60 <- FULL P/N

The ONLY difference is the NAME PLATE.

	


Perhaps. Having taken a few apart to fix them I have seen differences. But in general I agree that there really aren't many differences between automotive and aviation alternators.



Where you do see differences is when you get to alternators that have been designed to operate at higher output and higher temperatures. These are not alternators that you normally find in automotive or aviation use. Sometimes they use the same case but usually they have high-temp bearings, better cooling fans, and radically different stators.



The big difference is in the stator. I have seen two approaches to high-output and hot-rated stators. One approach is to triple-wind the stator where each stator winding actually consists of three windings in parallel on the same core. The other approach is to just use much larger wire in the stator. Both approaches reduce I*R losses and its concomitant temperature rise.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have taken both plane and car alternators, disconnected the regulator and 

ran them with a variable load and up to 5000 RPM.  I was able to get 107 Amps 

out of a 60 Amp Alternator.  Sure it got hot, but it did not fail.  ALL 

alternators are under rated.  They have to be if you expect them to work.  Keeping 

the LOAD at 80% of the source is just GOOD design practices.  Just because a 

wire can handle 15 Amps does not mean you run it at 15 Amps.  

	


Sure you can get a lot of output out of them for a little while. But you have massive I*R losses in the stator. It gets HOT! If you continue to pull a lot of amps from the alternator the stator gets hot enough to burn through its insulation. At that point the stator fails and the point is moot. As someone who has personally repaired many alternators with fried stators I can attest to what is happening. I speak from multiple occurrences of personal experience -- the standard automotive alternator is incapable of sustained operation at its "rated" output without burning up its stator. You can increase the life with better cooling (good idea) or you can reduce the I*R losses so that less of the current is turned into heat in the alternator.



 	  Quote: 	
		  What is common between plane and boats is VIBRATION.  How does a Stator fail? 

From Vibration.  The stator is basically a SOLID unit.  It does not fail ... 

	


You bet your sweet patootie it fails. Burns right up. Insulation is ash. Smells bad too.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The bearings and the bell fail Because of Vibration, which causes the stator 

to go off center and usually destroying the brushes and field coil.  I have 

NEVER seen a stator fail that did not involve the bearings or bell.

	


I have. Many times. It is a common occurrence. I have fixed them. I spent hours looking at failed alternators in an alternator repair shop to try to figure out ways to make them not fail.



One interesting way to do it is what I ended up doing on my boat. My regulator has a duty-cycle limit for the field. The field current is either on or off and the alternator output is controlled by the duty cycle of the field, i.e. on vs. off time of the field current. When more output is needed the field current stays on a longer proportion of the time. (BTW, this is how all internally-regulated alternators work.) The inductance of the field averages out the magnetic field so you get a smooth output. What happens when you have a really big load at the limit of the alternator's capacity is that the field goes on and stays on. Now the output of the alternator is limited by the I*R losses in the stator. My regulator has a maximum duty cycle adjustment. If I set it for 80% it won't let the field current stay on more than 80% of the time. Since I dropped the duty cycle to a maximum of 60% and improved alternator cooling I haven't had to replace a stator.



Now this is not really apropos to aviation because you are rarely trying to charge a 1000 amp-hour battery bank like I am on my boat. When that battery is low it can sink hundreds of amps during charge. (I limit my charge current to 100A but then it will take most of the day to charge if the battery bank is really low.) The alternator is running at 100% output for long periods of time. It will burn itself up if it isn't really designed to handle 100% output.



You are right about vibration. It happens. You can improve things by balancing the rotor and putting in beefier bearings (preferably ones with a higher temperature rating too). BTW, the bearings also fail from the heat.



 	  Quote: 	
		  As far as auto Vs plane alternators ... Give me a NEW auto type any day.  

They keep up with technology.

Don't believe it?  Look at the smaller size and higher output that we have 

today.  Other than big business using data such as MTBF to set up a warranty 

program .. YES, they reduce the quality of the components to keep operational 

times just a farts breath longer than the warranty period.  THAT is why I do not 

rebuild with OEM parts.

	


I suggest you look at hot-rated alternators from various sources. I recommend looking at Ample Power, Balmar, etc. to see what they do to make the alternator a true 100% duty-cycle device.

 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Waybrian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

tcervin(at)valkyrie.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

Well said Charlie! I have a B&C 40 Amp unit and regulator on my RV6-A which 

has operated flawlessly. It is small, light and well engineered even though 

it is rather expensive I wouldn't use anything else.

     I am building a stable mate for the RV at this time and the F1 Rocket 

will have the same B&C Combo.

                                                                             

                                                                           Tom 

in Ohio

---

brinker(at)cox-internet.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

Excuse my ignorance, but would someone please explain 

blast tube ? I have it in my mind an opening in the front of the cowling 

with baffling specific for the alternator.



Randy



---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

On Jun 30, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Brinker wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker(at)cox-internet.com (brinker(at)cox-internet.com)>

                    Excuse my ignorance, but would someone please explain blast tube ? I have it in my mind an opening in the front of the cowling with baffling specific for the alternator.

	


A blast tube is a piece of rigid tubing that comes out of the high-pressure side of the cooling air plenum and directs cool air at any device that needs cooling. You will often find a blast tube providing cooling air to a magneto, a fuel pump, and/or an alternator. I have seen alternators with cooling shrouds and with a port to allow the cooling air to be piped right inside the alternator. The latter is much better than a blast tube.



 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Waybrian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

Robert: You are right with a ND alternator you DON'T need 

an ALT switch at all. That is why I suggest combining the 

MASTER switch (which we do have) and the ALT switch 

together in one DPST switch, but we could take that a 

step further. 

   

  You could just run the alternator direct to the main buss 

with no switch which is OK, but.........

   

  I do believe in having a way to remove power to the 

IGN wire (the wake/sleep signal) for NON NORMAL 

circumstances or conditions, it's goodness. 

   

  A PULL-ABLE circuit breaker would do the job of 

emergency power disconnect nicely.  

   

  You could also use a split Cessna style switch and a 

fuse. I don't care for the Cessna switch because there

is a chance the pilot will mess with it or accidentally 

leave the alternator off inadvertantly, at least if they 

don't have  a good low volt warning.**

   

  I guess I am a victim of convention and following some 

standardization of wiring. I like the idea of having the 

ALT go thru a discrete switch of some kind, although 

as you point out, it can be left off and is not doing 

much, especially if you have the pull-able CB.

   

  What cars have is an ignition switch, which is their 

combined  MASTER and ALT and STARTER switch 

all in one. You could copy that concept. After all the 

alternator in question was designed to work in a car.

It has microprocessor control to work with out the 

operator to manually bring it on line or control an 

OV or what ever. They do fail but it is usually 

benign. On the other hand a car can pull over to 

the shoulder. We can't park on a cloud to fix 

things, so I suggest a way to at least attempt 

to shut it down if it fails in flight.  

   

   ** As far as LOW voltage all these ND's have a 

low volt fault light that should be wired into the 

aircraft. Many builders do not use it from many 

reasons. Van who sells many ND units in there 

accessory catalog does not show that PIN 

wired and therefore many follow that omission. 

   

   

  Hope that answers your question. 

   

   

  >posted by: Robert Sultzbach <endspeed(at)yahoo.com (endspeed(at)yahoo.com)>

   

  >Hi George,

 	  Quote: 	
		  After reading your post I was left wondering why

bother having a field switch at all in this type of

alternator. Is there a reason to have a field switch? 

   
	


   

  

 



  	 	 		Want to be your own boss? Learn how on [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=41244/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index] Yahoo! Small Business.[/url]

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:41 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

 

  	  Quote: 	
		      

       	  Quote: 	
		       --> AeroElectric-List message posted by:      "Brinker" <brinker(at)cox-internet.com (brinker(at)cox-internet.com)>

     



                              Excuse my      ignorance, but would someone please explain blast tube ? I have it in my      mind an opening in the front of the cowling with baffling specific for the      alternator.

	
   

A blast tube is a piece of rigid    tubing that comes out of the high-pressure side of the cooling air plenum and    directs cool air at any device that needs cooling. You will often find a blast    tube providing cooling air to a magneto, a fuel pump, and/or an alternator. I    have seen alternators with cooling shrouds and with a port to allow the    cooling air to be piped right inside the alternator. The latter is much better    than a blast tube.



      Brian Lloyd                            361 Catterline Way   brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom,    CA 95630

   +1.916.367.2131 (voice)                +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

    

   You can use a flexible tube also and insert some sort of stiff wire type    shaft inside it to bend it into the shape and direction you want so it blows    right where needed.  Larry in    Indiana

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

Well, I am ready to present a question that I have  not seen presented and wonder just why the great minds of aero-elec have not  asked it already.  

  

 With all the concern about shutting down a runaway  alternator and the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why  couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could throw in the  event of the OV that would just ground the alt. output to the plane's frame or  ground or have some tremendus load present like a hundred light bulbs that got  switched on to absorb the over load of electrons.  I suppose we could also  consider a knife that could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to cut  it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning.  Larry in Indiana

 [quote]   ---

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

Good Morning Larry,   

 Along that line, but maybe just a bit easier to implement than a big knife,  why not an electric clutch on the drive? 

  

 Such clutches are available now for use with standby alternators. They tend  to be used to activate rather than deactivate the device, but who  knows!!!????

  

 It may have possibilities!

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



  

 In a message dated 7/1/2006 6:51:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,  lhelming(at)sigecom.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     With all the concern about shutting down a    runaway alternator and the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that    way, why couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could    throw in the event of the OV that would just ground the alt. output to the    plane's frame or ground or have some tremendus load present like a hundred    light bulbs that got switched on to absorb the over load of electrons.  I    suppose we could also consider a knife that could be moved out into the path    of the alt. belt to cut it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning.  Larry    in Indiana

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

The electric clutches are heavy, use a fair bit of power, and are 

usually too large diameter for use on the alternator.



The issue of loading excess output has been discussed at least once 3 or 

4 years ago. You need the space to put something like a killowatt of 

heaters and the end result is likely a burnt up alternator fairly 

quickly anyway except now you also have high current and heat to 

consider.  Bob K. did not recommend this approach. You still might need 

to disconnect the alternaor from the battery or expect the battery to 

blow the B lead fuse to make sure the battery was not pulled down as 

well. I concluded that a OVP cutoff and a second small alternator made 

more sense, was simpler, and more versatile. A search for "stall the 

alternator" might bring something up.



Ken

BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Good Morning Larry,

  

 Along that line, but maybe just a bit easier to implement than a big 

 knife, why not an electric clutch on the drive?

  

 Such clutches are available now for use with standby alternators. They 

 tend to be used to activate rather than deactivate the device, but who 

 knows!!!????

  

 It may have possibilities!

  

 Happy Skies,



 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 Stearman N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630 985-8503

  

 In a message dated 7/1/2006 6:51:09 A.M. Central Standard Time, 

 lhelming(at)sigecom.net writes:



     With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and

     the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why

     couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could

     throw in the event of the OV that would just ground the alt.

     output to the plane's frame or ground or have some tremendus load

     present like a hundred light bulbs that got switched on to absorb

     the over load of electrons.  I suppose we could also consider a

     knife that could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to

     cut it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning.  Larry in Indiana

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

On Jul 1, 2006, at 7:45 AM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Well, I am ready to present a question that I have not seen presented and wonder just why the great minds of aero-elec have not asked it already. 

 

With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could throw in the event of the OV that would just ground the alt. output to the plane's frame or ground or have some tremendus load present like a hundred light bulbs that got switched on to absorb the over load of electrons.  I suppose we could also consider a knife that could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to cut it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning.  Larry in Indiana

	


There has been a lot of discussion of this. The long and short of it is that you turn off an alternator by de-energizing the field. This is easy to do with an external regulator as you just put a switch between the bus and the power input to the regulator. 



The problem comes with internally regulated alternators. They have their own set of diodes that power the regulator and field. Once the alternator comes on-line, it continues to make its own power. Some IR alternators have an input that is an on/off signal to turn the alternator off but if the on/off circuit in the internal regulator fails you may not be able to turn off the field current and thus turn off the alternator.



But this is the OBAM world. There is nothing preventing anyone from creating a fail-safe way to turn off an IR alternator. In the boating world we convert IR alternators into ER alternators all the time so we can use better, smarter regulators. It would be almost as easy to provide absolute control over the internal regulator and field supply.



Inside the IR alternator there is something called the diode trio. It is a small set of diodes that take their output from the stator and provide DC to the internal regulator. That is where it gets its power. All you have to do is remove the diode trio and bring the power input to the regulator to an external terminal. When you want to turn the alternator on you connect this terminal to the main bus. When you want to absolutely turn the alternator off, remove power from this terminal. Simple. Now your IR alternator operates as if it were an ER alternator. 



If the alternator has an "I" (ignition) terminal, rewire to use that.

 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Waybrian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

At 12:08 PM 7/1/2006, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  On Jul 1, 2006, at 7:45 AM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Well, I am ready to present a question that I have not seen presented and wonder just why the great minds of aero-elec have not asked it already. 

  

 With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could throw in the event of the OV that would just ground the alt. output to the plane's frame or ground or have some tremendus load present like a hundred light bulbs that got switched on to absorb the over load of electrons.  I suppose we could also consider a knife that could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to cut it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning.  Larry in Indiana 	


 There has been a lot of discussion of this. The long and short of it is that you turn off an alternator by de-energizing the field. This is easy to do with an external regulator as you just put a switch between the bus and the power input to the regulator. 



 The problem comes with internally regulated alternators. They have their own set of diodes that power the regulator and field. Once the alternator comes on-line, it continues to make its own power. Some IR alternators have an input that is an on/off signal to turn the alternator off but if the on/off circuit in the internal regulator fails you may not be able to turn off the field current and thus turn off the alternator.



 But this is the OBAM world. There is nothing preventing anyone from creating a fail-safe way to turn off an IR alternator. In the boating world we convert IR alternators into ER alternators all the time so we can use better, smarter regulators. It would be almost as easy to provide absolute control over the internal regulator and field supply.



 Inside the IR alternator there is something called the diode trio. It is a small set of diodes that take their output from the stator and provide DC to the internal regulator. That is where it gets its power. All you have to do is remove the diode trio and bring the power input to the regulator to an external terminal. When you want to turn the alternator on you connect this terminal to the main bus. When you want to absolutely turn the alternator off, remove power from this terminal. Simple. Now your IR alternator operates as if it were an ER alternator. 



 If the alternator has an "I" (ignition) terminal, rewire to use that.



 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

 brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax) 	


 Brian,

  I have a copy of the article that Paul Messinger wrote in CONTACT magazine some years ago, that details how to convert a ND internally regulated alternator to external regulation. Essentially, it describes how solder jumper wires which will bypass the internal regulator. A conventional external regulator is then added to the system for rotor field control. 

  If I understand your post correctly, what you describe retains the stock regulator, but allows external manual control if it. This sounds great. However, I have to wonder, if it really is this simple, why haven't Paul M or Bob N proposed it before? I'm not knocking what you propose. I'm just wondering why this took so long to appear on this list?

  Do you have a schematic or photos of how to achieve this? Does this modification require the use of certain model(s) of ND alternator to function properly?

 Charlie Kuss

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

On Jul 1, 2006, at 1:09 PM, Charlie Kuss wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Brian,

  I have a copy of the article that Paul Messinger wrote in CONTACT magazine some years ago, that details how to convert a ND internally regulated alternator to external regulation. Essentially, it describes how solder jumper wires which will bypass the internal regulator. A conventional external regulator is then added to the system for rotor field control. 

	


Right. That is what I have done so my alternators on the boat -- more or less. In my case there is a kit that drops in place of the existing internal regulator that neatly provides access to the field on a connector.



 	  Quote: 	
		    If I understand your post correctly, what you describe retains the stock regulator, but allows external manual control if it. 

	


That is correct.



 	  Quote: 	
		  This sounds great. However, I have to wonder, if it really is this simple, why haven't Paul M or Bob N proposed it before? 

	


Bob Nuckolls and I have exchanged email about this and, as I recall, he was concerned about asking people to take their alternator apart and possibly making it less reliable by not doing a good job with soldering or other workmanship inside the alternator. His point is a very good and valid one.



(And Bob, please step in her if I am misrepresenting you as our conversations in this area are a couple years old if I recall.)



OTOH, these things are pretty beefy and not prone to being screwed up by ham-handed mechanics. Making a bad solder joint is about the worst that I can see happening. I also suppose that if you shorted the B-lead to the field somehow you could get it to run away too.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm not knocking what you propose. I'm just wondering why this took so long to appear on this list?

	


Dunno. It seems pretty obvious to me so I just assumed someone had posted it before. Bob was certainly aware of the concept so I presumed it had been discussed on the list.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Do you have a schematic or photos of how to achieve this? Does this modification require the use of certain model(s) of ND alternator to function properly?

	


No, I have no photos or schematic. I would have to experiment on one. I have worked inside the GM Delco alternators a lot as that is what I have on the boat but I have never tried to hack a Nippon Denso alternator. OTOH, alternators are all basically the same at the core. There are only a few ways you can make a self-exciting alternator. It shouldn't be too hard to do no matter which alternator you have.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Charlie Kuss

  	




 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Waybrian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

 	  Quote: 	
		   No, I have no photos or schematic. I would have to experiment on one. I 

 have worked inside the GM Delco alternators a lot as that is what I have 

 on the boat but I have never tried to hack a Nippon Denso alternator. 

 OTOH, alternators are all basically the same at the core. There are only 

 a few ways you can make a self-exciting alternator. It shouldn't be too 

 hard to do no matter which alternator you have.


	


Brian,



I'll be happy to mail you a brand new ND alternator to play with

(and keep) if you can find the time to do it.  I would be most

interested in this type of modification.  Just let me know.



Thanks,

Mickey

-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

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_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

On Jul 1, 2006, at 4:18 PM, Mickey Coggins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch (mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch)>

  	  Quote: 	
		  No, I have no photos or schematic. I would have to experiment on one. I have worked inside the GM Delco alternators a lot as that is what I have on the boat but I have never tried to hack a Nippon Denso alternator. OTOH, alternators are all basically the same at the core. There are only a few ways you can make a self-exciting alternator. It shouldn't be too hard to do no matter which alternator you have.

 	




Brian,

I'll be happy to mail you a brand new ND alternator to play with

(and keep) if you can find the time to do it.  I would be most

interested in this type of modification.  Just let me know.

	


Well, I am not sure when I would get around to it. Right now I am in Ft. Lauderdale fixing the mess that is my boat. (I have been away for most of a year and hurricane Wilma had her way with Take Two in the mean time.) I fly to JAX tomorrow where I am going to get married on Friday. I hope to make it to OSH. I don't know when I will be back in the PRC (People's Republic of California for the uninitiated) to work on anything.



Still, it isn't going to be that hard. If you remove the bolts holding the two bells together with the stator pole pieces, the rear bell with the regulator and brushes should come off. At that point you will probably see how the regulator module and the diode trio are connected. You will see the three leads of the diode trio going off to connect to the various stator windings. The fourth terminal will go to the regulator module. That is where the regulator gets its power. Remove the diode trio and provide some sort of connection to that terminal of the regulator. Feed your field power in there.



Probably the biggest question is how to do this and make it robust enough to live inside the cowling of an airplane. My guess is that one should find a convenient location in the rear bell to drill a hole for an insulated bolt, much like the way the B-lead comes out.



Ah, but I am just rambling. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks,

Mickey





-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing





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 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Waybrian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

lists(at)stevet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

FWIW, I have two Bosch alternators on my engine, and I just took them  

to my local alternator shop.  This guy has a sterling reputation and  

he removed the internal regulators and provided a field wire for me  

at a very reasonable price.  Great solution for a ham-handed amateur.



Steve Thomas

________________________________________________________________________



On Jul 1, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bob Nuckolls and I have exchanged email about this and, as I  

 recall, he was concerned about asking people to take their  

 alternator apart and possibly making it less reliable by not doing  

 a good job with soldering or other workmanship inside the  

 alternator. His point is a very good and valid one.

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

Does this guy do work by mail?  If so, please give us his address and what 

is a reasonable price.  I have a brand new ND look alike IR alt that I would 

like to have converted if your local alt. shop place is interested.  Larry 

in Indiana

---

jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

I too would be interested.



Jim Bowen

[quote]From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>

Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided Date: 

Sun, 2 Jul 2006 06:07:05 -0500




<lhelming(at)sigecom.net>



Does this guy do work by mail?  If so, please give us his address and what 

is a reasonable price.  I have a brand new ND look alike IR alt that I 

would like to have converted if your local alt. shop place is interested.  

Larry in Indiana

---

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided

At 06:45 AM 7/1/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Well, I am ready to present a question that I have not seen presented and 

wonder just why the great minds of aero-elec have not asked it already.



With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and the fact 

that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why couldn't we setup a 

switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could throw in the event of the 

OV that would just ground the alt. output to the plane's frame or ground 

or have some tremendus load present like a hundred light bulbs that got 

switched on to absorb the over load of electrons.  I suppose we could also 

consider a knife that could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to 

cut it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning.  Larry in Indiana


	




    Don't worry about it. There's a system under development

    that's easy to add on to any existing system that provides

    the any-time/any-conditions absolute control over a

    stock automotive alternator. The risks for not having it

    right now are low. If you want OV protection now, you can

    install the original Z-24 configuration knowing that the

    ultimate solution will use the b-lead contactor and alternator

    control switch. The straight transorb approach hypothesized

    on the last figure of page 4 will not work. We've got

    a plan-E . . . or is it "F" . . . anyhow, the solution

    will not be difficult or expensive.



    See:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Failures.pdf



    Bob . . .

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