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hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:42 pm Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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No flying today, so I decided to remove the alternator and have it tested at an auto parts store. Much to my surprise, they said it was fine. I rechecked the connectors at both the alternator and the voltage regulator and can’t find anything wrong there. I still want to check for any AC voltage coming to the main bus dispute what the auto place said. There must be a smoking gun somewhere.
Ivan Haecker
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 10:15 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:20 PM 2/28/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Yes, as the engine rpm goes up, field voltage begins to go down and the panel voltmeter goes down to battery voltage (12.5v). At idle, the field voltage goes up and the panel voltage in turn rises back to ~14.5v. The plane is an rv-4 which I’ve been flying for 31 yrs. The regulator is a NAPA ford type (VR 440) that has been in service for 7 yrs. The alternator is an Auto Zone #14184 (I think 30 amp or so), |
  that's a 35 amp alternator which was Van's
  first pick many, many moons ago. 14184 is
  the Lester number for a Denso part that
  was used on a constellation of automobiles.
https://tinyurl.com/2zxwvabs
| Quote: | | Â and it has been in service 14 yrs. |
  You got your money's worth out of that one!
| Quote: | Â Also I have lately noticed a whine in the radio audio that
 changes with rpm. I don’t know if that is related to my problem or not. |
 May very well be . . . loss of performance in
 one or more phases of the alternator causes
 a profound increase in the AC ripple voltage
 riding on the DC output . . . it also manifests
 in a degraded output capability.
 The increased ripple voltage is often manifest
 by a sudden presence of alternator whine
 in an audio system.
 The numbers you cited for regulator behavior
 seem reasonable . . . I'd vote for an alternator
 replacement. Many parts stores can run your
 alternator on a test bench while being
 able to offer an off-the-shelf replacement.
 That '14184' is the key to a drop-in
 replacement.
 Bob . . .
 Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
 survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
 out of that stuff?"
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hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:15 pm Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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To those who have been following my sad tale of woe, I have good news to report. Today I took my alternator to another auto parts store and had another test run performed. Again I was told that the alternator was performing normally. So I  purchased a new regulator (Ford type) and installed it. Everything has now returned to normal as the onboard volt meter stayed steady at about 14.5 volts no matter what the rpm. My conclusion is that despite the original regulator seeming to provide expected input to the field of the regulator, it wasn’t. Perhaps if I had measured the current flow as Joe suggested, I could have determined that. In any case, I appreciate all the responses to my original post.Â
Ivan Haecker
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 10:41 PM H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com (hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | No flying today, so I decided to remove the alternator and have it tested at an auto parts store. Much to my surprise, they said it was fine. I rechecked the connectors at both the alternator and the voltage regulator and can’t find anything wrong there. I still want to check for any AC voltage coming to the main bus dispute what the auto place said. There must be a smoking gun somewhere.
Ivan Haecker
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 10:15 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:20 PM 2/28/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Yes, as the engine rpm goes up, field voltage begins to go down and the panel voltmeter goes down to battery voltage (12.5v). At idle, the field voltage goes up and the panel voltage in turn rises back to ~14.5v. The plane is an rv-4 which I’ve been flying for 31 yrs. The regulator is a NAPA ford type (VR 440) that has been in service for 7 yrs. The alternator is an Auto Zone #14184 (I think 30 amp or so), |
  that's a 35 amp alternator which was Van's
  first pick many, many moons ago. 14184 is
  the Lester number for a Denso part that
  was used on a constellation of automobiles.
https://tinyurl.com/2zxwvabs
| Quote: | | Â and it has been in service 14 yrs. |
  You got your money's worth out of that one!
| Quote: | Â Also I have lately noticed a whine in the radio audio that
 changes with rpm. I don’t know if that is related to my problem or not. |
 May very well be . . . loss of performance in
 one or more phases of the alternator causes
 a profound increase in the AC ripple voltage
 riding on the DC output . . . it also manifests
 in a degraded output capability.
 The increased ripple voltage is often manifest
 by a sudden presence of alternator whine
 in an audio system.
 The numbers you cited for regulator behavior
 seem reasonable . . . I'd vote for an alternator
 replacement. Many parts stores can run your
 alternator on a test bench while being
 able to offer an off-the-shelf replacement.
 That '14184' is the key to a drop-in
 replacement.
 Bob . . .
 Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
 survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
 out of that stuff?"
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:52 am Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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At 06:14 PM 3/2/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | To those who have been following my sad tale of woe, I have good news to report. Today I took my alternator to another auto parts store and had another test run performed. Again I was told that the alternator was performing normally. |
Never hurts to have confirmation
| Quote: | So I Â purchased a new regulator (Ford type) and installed
it. Everything has now returned to normal as the onboard
volt meter stayed steady at about 14.5 volts no matter
what the rpm. My conclusion is that despite the original
regulator seeming to provide expected input to the field
of the regulator, it wasn't. Perhaps if I had measured
the current flow as Joe suggested, I could have determined
that. |
The alternator field looks like a resistor
to the regulator. Current flow would have
be proportional to applied voltage and would
have yielded no new information.
It's unfortunate that we didn't arrive at
a definitive conclusion before you got
out wrenches. That test-fixture with a known-
good regulator was crafted with that goal
in mind. The regulators can be had for
a pittance . . .
https://tinyurl.com/2nugnwu8
and the test tool can be re-purposed as a
spare part should it show that the in-service
part is bad.
The appearance of alternator whine was
the signal that chased me down the wrong
rabbit hole. Has that condition resolved?
Also, do you still have your failed
regulator. If you're not nailing carcasses
of bagged predators to the shop wall
I'd like to have it to run on my test
stand and get some measurements.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:57 pm Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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Things did not go so well today. Initially, the system was working normally with 14.5v on the panel voltmeter at cruise power. 15 minutes into the flight, the problem reappeared, with the voltmeter once again registering only battery voltage. And the radio noise came back as well. On my return trip home, no charging occurred until I got back on the ground, at which time the voltmeter was back to 14.5 volts. Very discouraging.Â
Bob, If I ever resolve this problem, I’ll be happy to send you the regulator that got replaced. In the meantime, I’ll be trying another regulator for tomorrow’s flight.
Ivan Haecker
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 8:54 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 06:14 PM 3/2/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | To those who have been following my sad tale of woe, I have good news to report. Today I took my alternator to another auto parts store and had another test run performed. Again I was told that the alternator was performing normally. |
 Never hurts to have confirmation
| Quote: | So I Â purchased a new regulator (Ford type) and installed
it. Everything has now returned to normal as the onboard
volt meter stayed steady at about 14.5 volts no matter
what the rpm. My conclusion is that despite the original
regulator seeming to provide expected input to the field
of the regulator, it wasn't. Perhaps if I had measured
the current flow as Joe suggested, I could have determined
that. |
 The alternator field looks like a resistor
 to the regulator. Current flow would have
 be proportional to applied voltage and would
 have yielded no new information.
 It's unfortunate that we didn't arrive at
 a definitive conclusion before you got
 out wrenches. That test-fixture with a known-
 good regulator was crafted with that goal
 in mind. The regulators can be had for
 a pittance . . .
https://tinyurl.com/2nugnwu8
 and the test tool can be re-purposed as a
 spare part should it show that the in-service
 part is bad.
 The appearance of alternator whine was
 the signal that chased me down the wrong
 rabbit hole. Has that condition resolved?
 Also, do you still have your failed
 regulator. If you're not nailing carcasses
 of bagged predators to the shop wall
 I'd like to have it to run on my test
 stand and get some measurements.
 Bob . . .
 Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
 survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
 out of that stuff?"
|
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1931
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent Charging |
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Intermittent problems are difficult to troubleshoot. Perhaps the alternator
fails at a certain temperature. How about heating the alternator up prior to
having it tested at the auto parts store?
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Joe Gores |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:36 am Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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At 07:56 PM 3/4/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | Things did not go so well today. Initially, the system was working normally with 14.5v on the panel voltmeter at cruise power. 15 minutes into the flight, the problem reappeared, with the voltmeter once again registering only battery voltage. And the radio noise came back as well. On my return trip home, no charging occurred until I got back on the ground, at which time the voltmeter was back to 14.5 volts. Very discouraging.Â
Bob, If I ever resolve this problem, I’ll be happy to send you the regulator that got replaced. In the meantime, I’ll be trying another regulator for tomorrow’s flight. |
Suggest you take either of your regulators-in-hand
to fabricate the regulator-only-test fixture cited
earlier. Attach all wires of the fixture directly
to the back of the alternator.
This essentially mimics a one-wire, internally-
regulated alternator and bypasses all other ship's
wiring save b-lead and alternator grounding.
Have you checked the condition of the ground-path
between alternator and battery(-)? Where and
how does battery(-) and crankcase get connected
to airframe?
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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skywagon185(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:49 pm Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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|
Intermittent charging.....I had an odd experience that closely relates to your problem... the alternator going in and out of charging.
It was a booger to diagnose....,
A well seasoned electrical mechanic figured it out. Â
When the unit was constructed one of the large stator wires was either heat treated wrong or was crushed in the factory assembly process. The wire where connected in the frame finally developed an almost invisible crack where it was mounted.Â
When the unit got hot this crack opened and caused no charge or fluctuate charging. After cooling down it regained charging. Very discouraging as every time it was checked for the problem, it was not hot enough to show the problem... The only fix in my case was installing a new alternator.
D
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 5:59 PM H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com (hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Things did not go so well today. Initially, the system was working normally with 14.5v on the panel voltmeter at cruise power. 15 minutes into the flight, the problem reappeared, with the voltmeter once again registering only battery voltage. And the radio noise came back as well. On my return trip home, no charging occurred until I got back on the ground, at which time the voltmeter was back to 14.5 volts. Very discouraging.Â
Bob, If I ever resolve this problem, I’ll be happy to send you the regulator that got replaced. In the meantime, I’ll be trying another regulator for tomorrow’s flight.
Ivan Haecker
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 8:54 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 06:14 PM 3/2/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | To those who have been following my sad tale of woe, I have good news to report. Today I took my alternator to another auto parts store and had another test run performed. Again I was told that the alternator was performing normally. |
 Never hurts to have confirmation
| Quote: | So I Â purchased a new regulator (Ford type) and installed
it. Everything has now returned to normal as the onboard
volt meter stayed steady at about 14.5 volts no matter
what the rpm. My conclusion is that despite the original
regulator seeming to provide expected input to the field
of the regulator, it wasn't. Perhaps if I had measured
the current flow as Joe suggested, I could have determined
that. |
 The alternator field looks like a resistor
 to the regulator. Current flow would have
 be proportional to applied voltage and would
 have yielded no new information.
 It's unfortunate that we didn't arrive at
 a definitive conclusion before you got
 out wrenches. That test-fixture with a known-
 good regulator was crafted with that goal
 in mind. The regulators can be had for
 a pittance . . .
https://tinyurl.com/2nugnwu8
 and the test tool can be re-purposed as a
 spare part should it show that the in-service
 part is bad.
 The appearance of alternator whine was
 the signal that chased me down the wrong
 rabbit hole. Has that condition resolved?
 Also, do you still have your failed
 regulator. If you're not nailing carcasses
 of bagged predators to the shop wall
 I'd like to have it to run on my test
 stand and get some measurements.
 Bob . . .
 Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
 survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
 out of that stuff?"
|
|
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hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:17 pm Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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|
Skywagon185guy,
Your experience describes my problem very well. Another flight this morning with another regulator led to the same problem as previously. It charges on the ground and for a short time in the flight, then failure. Then black to charging upon landing and taxiing back to the hangar. I checked the engine ground and found nothing amiss, plus never a problem with cranking, indicating to me a robust ground. I was about to mount the regulator on the back of the alternator as Bob suggested, when a friend dropped by and said he had a spare alternator I could try. I got in a 30 minute flight and everything functioned properly. The radio noise was gone and the panel voltmeter stayed steady at ~14.5 volts. Never even a twitch of the needle. Not wanting to celebrate prematurely again, I’ll give it another go tomorrow. If all goes well again, it would be interesting to see what’s inside the old alternator.
Ivan Haecker
On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 2:52 PM skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com (skywagon185(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Intermittent charging.....I had an odd experience that closely relates to your problem... the alternator going in and out of charging.
It was a booger to diagnose....,
A well seasoned electrical mechanic figured it out. Â
When the unit was constructed one of the large stator wires was either heat treated wrong or was crushed in the factory assembly process. The wire where connected in the frame finally developed an almost invisible crack where it was mounted.Â
When the unit got hot this crack opened and caused no charge or fluctuate charging. After cooling down it regained charging. Very discouraging as every time it was checked for the problem, it was not hot enough to show the problem... The only fix in my case was installing a new alternator.
D
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 5:59 PM H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com (hivanhaecker(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Things did not go so well today. Initially, the system was working normally with 14.5v on the panel voltmeter at cruise power. 15 minutes into the flight, the problem reappeared, with the voltmeter once again registering only battery voltage. And the radio noise came back as well. On my return trip home, no charging occurred until I got back on the ground, at which time the voltmeter was back to 14.5 volts. Very discouraging.Â
Bob, If I ever resolve this problem, I’ll be happy to send you the regulator that got replaced. In the meantime, I’ll be trying another regulator for tomorrow’s flight.
Ivan Haecker
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 8:54 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 06:14 PM 3/2/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | | To those who have been following my sad tale of woe, I have good news to report. Today I took my alternator to another auto parts store and had another test run performed. Again I was told that the alternator was performing normally. |
 Never hurts to have confirmation
| Quote: | So I Â purchased a new regulator (Ford type) and installed
it. Everything has now returned to normal as the onboard
volt meter stayed steady at about 14.5 volts no matter
what the rpm. My conclusion is that despite the original
regulator seeming to provide expected input to the field
of the regulator, it wasn't. Perhaps if I had measured
the current flow as Joe suggested, I could have determined
that. |
 The alternator field looks like a resistor
 to the regulator. Current flow would have
 be proportional to applied voltage and would
 have yielded no new information.
 It's unfortunate that we didn't arrive at
 a definitive conclusion before you got
 out wrenches. That test-fixture with a known-
 good regulator was crafted with that goal
 in mind. The regulators can be had for
 a pittance . . .
https://tinyurl.com/2nugnwu8
 and the test tool can be re-purposed as a
 spare part should it show that the in-service
 part is bad.
 The appearance of alternator whine was
 the signal that chased me down the wrong
 rabbit hole. Has that condition resolved?
 Also, do you still have your failed
 regulator. If you're not nailing carcasses
 of bagged predators to the shop wall
 I'd like to have it to run on my test
 stand and get some measurements.
 Bob . . .
 Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
 survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
 out of that stuff?"
|
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|
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:38 pm Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
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|
At 09:28 PM 3/4/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Intermittent problems are difficult to troubleshoot. Perhaps the alternator
fails at a certain temperature. How about heating the alternator up prior to
having it tested at the auto parts store? |
An interesting hypothesis. Another way to
ferret this out would be to conduct a test
flight battery only. Energize the alternator
for a few seconds every 5 minutes or so to
see if it's (1) active and (2) free of alternator
noise in audio system.
The goal is to explore alternator performance,
over a period of time, without allowing it to
heat up.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:58 am Post subject: Intermittent Charging |
|
|
At 08:16 PM 3/5/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | Another flight this morning with another regulator led to the same
problem as previously. It charges on the ground and for a short time
in the flight, then failure. Then black to charging upon landing
and taxiing back to the hangar. I checked the engine ground
and found nothing amiss, plus never a problem with cranking,
indicating to me a robust ground. |
Good data point.
| Quote: | I was about to mount the regulator on the back of the alternator
as Bob suggested, when a friend dropped by and said he had a spare
alternator I could try. I got in a 30 minute flight and everything
functioned properly. The radio noise was gone and the panel
voltmeter stayed steady at ~14.5 volts. Never even a twitch of the
needle. Not wanting to celebrate prematurely again, I'll give it
another go tomorrow. |
Good detective work. The original rabbit-hole
was attractive because time/temperature effects
are strongest in alternators. Regulators are
all solid state and generally quite robust
and long lived. That's why I was particularly
interested in doing a post mortem on your
'bad' regulator.
The really strong signal was the transient
alternator noise which would be one of two
conditions: (1) faulty ground system or (2)
loss-of-phase integrity in the stator-diodes
assembly.
I am skeptical of the parts-store alternator
testers to catch every possible failure . . .
especially those related to time/temperature
effects. Those benchtop test fixtures cannot
put out more than 1 hp or so . . . hence unable to
spin up an 60A alternator under full load.
They WILL spot bad diodes, brushes, shorted
windings, etc. under light loads but as you've
discovered . . . not capable of producing the
stress needed to trigger a time/temperature
fault.
| Quote: | If all goes well again, it would be interesting to see what's
inside the old alternator. |
Indeed. I would not discourage you from exploring
that topic yourself. However, if you like I am
willing to take a peek at it also. Given that
your problem child is 15 years old, I suspect
that it's simply fallen to the effects of 'old
age'. That's not always the case . . .here's
one example of fresh-out-of-the-box alternators
suffering the effects of manufacturing
incompetence.
https://tinyurl.com/2pbxghtw
Good work!
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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