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dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Don't forget to install auto-land while you're at it.



do NOT archive



---

Bob Perkinson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Hendersonville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

I just  installed one on my pick up.  If I had spent the  $98 a  month ago it would have saved me more that that.  The small blind spot  behind the truck counseled a small car.  The hole that I punched in the  small cars front bumper with the trailer hitch, when I backed up cost me  $765.  The monitor is mounted eye level with the left rear view mirror  and is part of my scan when I back up now.  Having a camera looking into a  blind spot no matter how small could save more than a few dollars.  I see  no problem with having someway of checking directly in front of the plane just  before taxing.  There might be a tie down rope laying there that you forgot  about, sucking that into the prop might give you a bad day.

  

 

Bob Perkinson

Hendersonville, TN.

RV9 N658RP  Reserved

If nothing changes

Nothing changes

 



  	  Quote: 	
		     

 

I agree.  I might be able to buy the    argument for a camera, but not in an RV.  I can't imagine another    airplane that I couldn't see from inside my RV-7.   

   Phil

   

   

      On Dec 1, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Paul Besing wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		       Sorry, but I just can't see it...especially in an RV.  The      visibility is pretty darn good in any tailwheel RV.  The blind spot is      very small actually.  Unlike alot of tailwheel airplanes, you can      almsot see over the nose on a tailwheel RV.

      

     Paul Besing





	




	
   [quote][b]

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

I am 6'3" and almost hit the canopy, and there is still a lot of blind 

spot in front of a RV-6. Look no one is saying you have to have one I 

just don't see a problem with it and I do not believe that adding it to 

a scan would be a problem I don't have one and probably never well but 

it could save someones bacon sometime.



Paul Besing wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sorry, but I just can't see it...especially in an RV.  The visibility is 

 pretty darn good in any tailwheel RV.  The blind spot is very small 

 actually.  Unlike alot of tailwheel airplanes, you can almsot see over 

 the nose on a tailwheel RV.

  

 Paul Besing

 

 Terry Watson <terry(at)tcwatson.com> wrote:

 

     Think of it as a “front-view” mirror. You glance at it when you want

     to see if anything or anyone is in the blind spot. Just because the

     technology behind it is sophisticated doesn’t mean it has to be

     distracting. Don’t make it complicated. And yes, I was thinking

     about people putting it in their tailwheel RV’s.

      

     But since I am building a nose-wheel airplane I don’t have a horse

     in this race. Hey, maybe I could use one to …. No, never mind!

      

     Terry

      

     ------------------------------------------------------------------------

     From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com

     [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Besing

     Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:55 PM

     To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

     Subject: Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

      

     Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like

     that will suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying

     to get things tuned, set, etc while taxiing to the runway. 

      

     First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was

     referring to putting it in an RV, not something like the aircraft

     the ran into the RV at oshkosh.

      

     Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing

     into another one like the accident this year?  Yes, there are ground

     incursions, but this one was extremely rare.  Yes, this "gizmo"

     might have prevented the accident, but in more ways than one could

     cause another one if your attention wasn't divided properly.  I'm in

     the business of flying aircraft where I have two forms of vision. 

     FLIR in my right eye and unaided view in my left.  I have to divide

     my attention all the time between the views.  I have hundreds of

     hours doing it, and my device follows my head movement and is not a

     fixed platform.  I use it while taxiing as well as flying.  Well,

     let me tell you this, it is not easy. 

      

     Two problems here.  One is parallax.  The camera is mounted at a

     different place than where you are sitting.  What it sees is from a

     different angle and perspective than you are looking.  If you try to

     empart that in a scan, your natural feel, even though you are only

     taxiing, will be disrupted.  Second is fixation.  The untrainted

     pilot with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted.  Maybe he'll be

     turning the aircraft between some hangars, and while looking at his

     monitor, the perception of his turning won't be great enough (the

     parallax thing) so he turns more.  Looks outside and bang, he just

     hit another airplane or hangar.

      

     Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic

     items like this, that could cause more.  Airplanes have been flying

     for 100 years without them, and this kind of accident is so very

     rare, that I wouldn't change a thing about airplanes to prevent

     another one. 

      

     There are few fly ins each year.  There are fewer airports that have

     this kind of congestion and chaos going on without some strict

     aircraft control procedures.  It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that

     the EAA will implement measures with their marshalls to prevent it. 

     But I'm sorry, TV cameras in airplanes are NOT the solution.  Better

     ground collision avoidance training (a hot topic with the FAA right

     now anyway) and sharp pilots/ground crew/controllers are the best

     way to prevent accidents like these.

      

     No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say.  I've already learned my

     lesson about gadgets, I tell you.  I always revert back to the

     basics when things don't go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and

     get back to being a pilot.

      

     Paul Besing

 

 

     Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 

         

 

         Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is

         part of an

         overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the

         cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be

         focused on a

         camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was

         staring at a

         forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It

         would

         really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back

         at the

         same time.

 

         Jerry

         do not archive

 

 

 

         Jeff Point wrote:

 

>  

 

  

 

  

 

 www.aeroelectric.com

 

 www.kitlog.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

That's what we "thought" too....until the motionless Cherokee. BUT then  again our's is only an RV "derivative". I would think that the view  out the left side of a -7 would be pretty close to the HRII but lacking  looking out the right side during an "S" turn.   KABONG Do Not Archive  

 [quote]   ---

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Wow-



Move over primer!  



Let me just say that the fellow who flew the H-1 replica said the fwd vis

unit installed on that plane was a godsend.  Unfortunately, it couldn't

keep the engine running-



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

december29(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Glen,

 I LOVE IT!!!  Move over primer, ha ha.  I say weigh the benefits, think 

about it, and use it if it makes sense.  These are experimental right?   ( 

that said, I'm built straight to plans).  Since I'm the slowest -8 builder, 

I feel qualified to comment.  This list has SO much good stuff on it, I 

really appreciate everyone's expertise.  But over like the last two years it 

has become a vent for some, to really lay others low.  I don't know why that 

is?

  All I know is we all selected a great airframe.  If a guy wants to fly it 

on floats, or to Alaska, or over the in-laws to prove something, or at 

night, or in the weather, or upside down,  it's okay................jeesh.

  I've spent my entire life in aviation.  I love flying airplanes for 

whatever reason, (I think I know mine).  I don't know why others fly,  but 

if they get the same joy I get from hanging around the airport, flying in 

the sun, talking about women and perfecting their craft then in the words of 

"Stripes" (an epic film worthy of an Oscar, ha,ha), "Lighten up, Francis".

  Flames are for afterburners.   Thankfully, Van didn't listen to people who 

said building his own airplane was stupid...........



My two cents,



John

#80002

---

cubflyr(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Blind spot? What blind spot. In taxiing an RV-4, one has either seen what is

ahead or is looking at it. You also have to taxi ahead of your aircraft the

same as flying ahead of your aircraft. If I am so far behind my aircraft as

I am TAXIING for crying out loud, then I had better taxi her right back to

the hangar. Am I doing my checklist when I am taxiing? Instrument scan?

Radio frequency check? Control check? No. I am taxiing the aircraft.

Everything else can wait. Yes, those airline-types do it on the run. Right.

Both pilots doing the checklists. Yours can wait. And I am always quite a

ways behind the aircraft in front of me, even and maybe especially at OSH.

You never know what they are going to suddenly be inclined to do. This is

not NASCAR; drafting has no advantage here. And a mirror for the ones

behind. And looking around.



Besides, my other ride is a J-3 Cub. You want to discuss blind spots. Just

sit in the back seat and drive it somewhere. Oh, well, you have to PAY

ATTENTION. Doing S-turns and looking ahead. Huh. Or I could put a video

monitor in the back seat of the Cub. Since they haven't been around very

long, I guess no one ever thought of that. 



And a stall-warning device.

And a stick shaker.

And a BRS. 

And a Ground Proximity Radar

And a..............



What's that thumping? Oh, it's Charles Lindbergh rolling in his grave.



Do not archive



Michael

RV-4 N232 Suzie Q 



Guess I'll go put the airplane away. This Flying thing is just to dangerous

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

OK, I move that Michael be excused from any mandatory requirement that this

group adopts to require all tailwheel RV's to have video monitoring of

anything. 



My tailwheel experience is so limited to be virtually non-existent. My very

first ride in an RV was in the back seat of Rob Huntsinger's RV-4 at

Arlington north of Seattle, probably close to ten years ago. We taxied to

the north end of the field to get fuel, then headed south on the taxiway to

take off. It was a busy spring day. Tow planes with gliders were launching

between the taxiway and the runway. People were walking across the taxiway

to the glider area. I was happily getting used to the back seat totally

oblivious to anything in front of us and Rob was S-turning our way along the

taxiway. Suddenly an S turn became a 90 degree turn with a shot of power and

we were off the taxiway into the grass. Looking over my left shoulder I saw

why. We were ducking out of the way of a big radial engine tail-wheeled Yak

going the opposite direction. I'm not sure he ever saw us. Yes, Rob saw him,

and yes, we didn't get chopped up, but it did help confirm my decision to

build a nose wheeled airplane.



C'mon guys, it was only a suggested source for something people were asking

about on this list maybe six months ago. I'm not saying everyone ought to

have one. I'm not even saying it's a good idea; I'm just saying that IF you

want one THEN this MIGHT be an inexpensive source.



And from what I remember reading about Charles Lindberg's opinion of his

total lack of forward visibility in his Sprit of St. Louis, my bet is that

he would have jumped at an option to see what was ahead of him. But then

maybe he wasn't macho enough to fly an RV.?? 



Terry

--

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

I understand where Paul is coming from, a camera 

and monitor in the cockpit of a RV is gimmicky and not 

needed. RV's have good fwd vis if you sit high and 

pay attention. 

 

I know its easy to take an emotional stand to justify 

putting cameras in a RV from the accident, but lets 

face it a TBM is a BIG PLANE and could have avoided 

hitting the RV with proper technique (meaning leaving 

a large gap so they could see the little plane.) WE 

HAVE the pilot aility to fly and taxi safely with out a 

camera. Camera adds weight and no doubt drag, not 

thanks but its fun to think about but not practical or 

needed. George RV-4/RV-7



   [quote][b]

Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Terry,

  

 I found the post interesting because I have been looking for a small screen TV monitor for a special instrument project.  If it will display a standard TV formatted video signal (NTSV?), then I would like to display various things like trim and flap positions and digital tach, and some other things I can't think of right now.  I know how to use old Motorola microprocessor chips to do those things.  Would love to feed video to my GPS 295 if anyone knows how.  Would probably have to be hacked to get the source code.  Garmin wouldn't like that!

  

 Does someone on the list know of a small (2 or 3 inch) color monitor that could be used for above project?

  

 Did the $100 combo have a color monitor?

  

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

  

 Oh, do not archive .

  

  

 In a message dated 12/2/2006 3:22:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>



OK, I move that Michael be excused from any mandatory requirement that this

group adopts to require all tailwheel RV's to have video monitoring of

anything. 



	


 

  [quote][b]

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Yes, this monitor is color. I see the price varies from the $89.99 I saw at Costco to $98.83 at Walmart’s online store to $169 at some other on-line sources. Here is the VR3 model number: VRBCS300W  

I noticed that the Costco part number had “cos” added to it, which could possibly mean that it is somehow different, although I don’t think so.  

   

Here is the product description off of Walmart’s website:  

           

[img]cid:image002.gif(at)01C7161C.4AE2C760[/img]                       

Get     the security you need to protect your family and friends. Eliminate the blinds spots and see     what's behind you before you back up. Large 2.5" monitor is easy to     view.           Wireless Back-Up Camera System with Color LCD Monitor allows          you to see what is behind you before you back up       
Comes complete with everything you need to install       
Avoid accidents and injuries in your Car, Van, SUV, RV, or          delivery vehicle       
Camera mounts to your existing license plate holder and          provides 110 degrees of horizontal camera viewing and 80 degrees          vertical camera viewing (measured diagonally)       
2.5" color monitor mounts to your dash or visor       
For use with 12V DC electrical systems       
Installation is easy with the elimination of wires       
Help is available by calling the number provided       
Easy to read, bilingual (English/Spanish) installation           

I think I have convinced myself to buy one     for my pickup. Gee, it even says it’s made for RV’s!     

Terry     

      

      

                

      

             

   

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hopperdhh(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:24 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots   

  

       

   

    

Terry,  

    

   

    

I found the post interesting because I have been looking for a small screen TV monitor for a special instrument project.  If it will display a standard TV formatted video signal (NTSV?), then I would like to display various things like trim and flap positions and digital tach, and some other things I can't think of right now.  I know how to use old Motorola microprocessor chips to do those things.  Would love to feed video to my GPS 295 if anyone knows how.  Would probably have to be hacked to get the source code.  Garmin wouldn't like that!  

    

   

    

Does someone on the list know of a small (2 or 3 inch) color monitor that could be used for above project?  

    

   

    

Did the $100 combo have a color monitor?  

    

   

    

Dan Hopper  

    

RV-7A  

    

   

    

Oh, do not archive .  

    

   

    

   

    

In a message dated 12/2/2006 3:22:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>

 

 OK, I move that Michael be excused from any mandatory requirement that this

 group adopts to require all tailwheel RV's to have video monitoring of

 anything.     www.aeroelectric.com 	
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rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think I have convinced myself to buy one for my pickup. Gee, it even 

 says it’s made for RV’s!


	


Terry,  Please let us know how it works.  It sounds like an excellent 

safety enhancer.

-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

neilmcleod(at)wildblue.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Here’s a set up that looks pretty good and has some good reviews from motorcycle road racers (of which I am one) for rear view use. Unfortunately it’s about 600 bucks for the camera and monitor. www.themotocam.com    

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hopperdhh(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:24 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots   

  

       

   

    

Terry,  

    

   

    

I found the post interesting because I have been looking for a small screen TV monitor for a special instrument project.  If it will display a standard TV formatted video signal (NTSV?), then I would like to display various things like trim and flap positions and digital tach, and some other things I can't think of right now.  I know how to use old Motorola microprocessor chips to do those things.  Would love to feed video to my GPS 295 if anyone knows how.  Would probably have to be hacked to get the source code.  Garmin wouldn't like that!  

    

   

    

Does someone on the list know of a small (2 or 3 inch) color monitor that could be used for above project?  

    

   

    

Did the $100 combo have a color monitor?  

    

   

    

Dan Hopper  

    

RV-7A  

    

   

    

Oh, do not archive .  

    

   

    

   

    

In a message dated 12/2/2006 3:22:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, terry(at)tcwatson.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>

 

 OK, I move that Michael be excused from any mandatory requirement that this

 group adopts to require all tailwheel RV's to have video monitoring of

 anything.     www.aeroelectric.com 	
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       [quote][b]

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Mickey, Dan, anyone else who is interested:



I did buy and install the little video camera & screen from Costco for

$90.00. I put it on my pickup as a back-up assist. The quality seems just

fine, and installation was especially easy, except for the crimp-on wire

taps that cut my truck's wiring and I had to take the gizmos off and solder

things back together.



The camera is in a plastic bracket that doubles as the top or bottom half of

a license plate frame. The wire comes out of that and hooks into the back-up

light circuit for the vehicle, so the camera is only powered when the

back-up lights are, or typically when the vehicle is in reverse. The wire is

also the broadcast antenna for the camera so it has a tag on it telling you

not to cut it off shorter than the location of the tag.



The receiver has a cigarette lighter plug or a hard wired cord; both are in

the box. There is a swivel holder for the screen and Velcro self-stick pads

to fasten either the swivel holder or the screen by itself to the vehicle.

It works on the same frequency as some cordless phones. I think I picked up

a stores security camera picture on the screen at one intersection I went

through tonight. I doubt that this would be a problem for anyone. I just

hadn't turned off the screen to see if it would pick up anything. It did.



I measured the little molded plastic box that the screen is mounted in but

forgot to write the dimensions down. If anyone needs it, I can go measure it

again and write it down this time. I think it was 3+" wide by 2+" tall by

7/8" thick; very light weight. The specs say the screen is 1-1/2". A bigger

screen in a smaller box would be better, of course, but this isn't bad, and

it's a clean design. You won't want to mount it too far away from your eyes.

The one concern I would have for it as the forward vision for a tail wheel

aircraft is that the camera lens is quite wide angle. This is great for a

back-up assist, but it might be too wide-angle for that blind spot some of

us are worried about. It would be very hard to judge distance by looking at

the screen, but I doubt if you would want to use it for that much precision

anyway. 



The screen is in color and the image is quite clear but distorted as through

a fish-eye lens. Interference from other electronics MIGHT be a problem; I

don't know. As for it causing problems with your avionics, just turning off

the camera and receiver would be easy and should solve that. The whole

system must weigh much less than a pound; it's quite light but I didn't

weigh it.



One very helpful feature of the receiver is that you have four possibilities

for the picture; right side up mirror image; right side up straight image;

upside down mirror image, or upside down not mirrored. You sequence through

the four settings with the only control button besides the power button.

This means that you could either install it as a back-up assist as I did and

set it so it reads like you were looking in a mirror, or as a forward view

enhancer without having to mentally interpolate what you are seeing.



I'm sure some will find lots of uses for this gadget or variations of the

concept. If this one serves your purpose, it is a well thought out and

manufactured system for an attractive price.



For the record:  Manufacturer is VR3, model number is VRBCS300W. Costco has

it for $90; Wal-Mart for about $100. On line it's advertised for up to $170.



Terry

 




 	  Quote: 	
		   I think I have convinced myself to buy one for my pickup. Gee, it even 

 says it's made for RV's!


	


Terry,  Please let us know how it works.  It sounds like an excellent 

safety enhancer.

-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

aerokinetic(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

I don't believe I need anything on my -4 except my eyeballs and some shallow S-turns...  but watch closely to see how they handled this problem in WWII on big taildraggers like the P-47 when taxiing in tight quarters (it's a cool video -you won't be sorry you viewed it).

   

  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4368250464023128830&amp;pr=goog-sl

  



  I personally think similar procedures should be used at OSH and other fly-ins with warbirds and other large taildraggers.

   

  Scott

  N4ZW

 [quote][b]

Vince Frazier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 132

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

Subject: RE: Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots 



I used a Sony Super HAD CCD color bullet camera (VC-805) from Circuit

Specialists.  It works perfectly.  It's not a wide angle camera like the

backup cameras.  It's been installed for well over a year and hasn't

missed a beat.



A little more info for those who want it:  scroll down to the FLIR

section.



http://www.vincesrocket.com/Additions%20after%2010-27-04.htm



It's not for everyone, but I like it and use it whenever I'm at an

unfamiliar or busy airport.  Or just to keep up with my nosedragging RV

buddies on the taxiway.



YMMV



Vince

_________________
Vince Frazier
3965 Caborn Road
Mount Vernon, IN 47620
812-464-1839 work
812-985-7309 home
F-1H Rocket, N540VF
http://vincesrocket.com/

jeffpoint

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 72
Location: MKE

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots

I personally think similar procedures should be used at OSH and other 

fly-ins with warbirds and other large taildraggers.



Great idea.  Are you volunteering for this duty? 



Jeff Point

RV-6 flying

RV-8 tail

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 *

 *

_________________
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee WI

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