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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

Scott,



The answer to your questions are None and None.  However, they do have an exclusion zone for boats that if you trespass, you will shortly have company.  Likewise, if you try to bring a car or truck on site, you will have to pass through security, have a reason and be subject to a search.  Not so with a plane.   We can arrive unannounced with no chance to question other than following to the airport of landing.



Unlike security that we see at airports, security details for nuclear power plants actually undergo training and drills and are reasonably professional...again in contrast to some of the airport security with which we are too familiar.  But of course, I've never really challenged security at a nuclear plant.  Perhaps next time I will give them the ultimate test and try to smuggle in a monkey under my hat.  



Chuck



--

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

I didn't notice a time duration on the length of the "detainment".   

There's a big difference between 10 minutes to verify some  

information vs. several hours.

But still sounds like someone was being an idiot.  In this particular  

case, I don't blame the police who did the investigation, but the  

person who did the original report.

-Joe

On Aug 30, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote:

> Sounds to me like the "system" worked.

> No one was arrested, tossed in jail without a hearing or bail nor  

> beaten to a pulp. Detained, questioned & released, exactly what I  

> would have done and expect the "Thin Blue Line" to continue to do.

 Personally, I'm kind of a fan of the existence of "probable cause"  

 before being detained.

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

[quote="jpl(at)showpage.org"]I

There's a big difference between 10 minutes to verify some  

information vs. several hours.[quote] 



Is there? You're a black person walking down a predominantly white neighborhood. Some old bat who's afraid of black people calls the cops and says "there's a black person in my neighborhood and I think he's going to rob people."



So the cops pull up to the black person and say, "what are you doing here?" And then they ask him to prove that he's not there to rob anyone. 



Now, I understand that a lot of folks probably don't see where this would be a problem. Which is itself a problem far greater than the incident itself.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

michael.phil(at)ca.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

I agree. When we allow casual intrusion on any member of our society, we are allowing that intrusion on us all. 

 

---- Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net> wrote: 

[quote] 

 

 [quote="jpl(at)showpage.org"]I

 There's a big difference between 10 minutes to verify some  

 information vs. several hours. 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Is there? You're a black person walking down a predominantly white neighborhood. Some old bat who's afraid of black people calls the cops and says "there's a black person in my neighborhood and I think he's going to rob people."

 

 So the cops pull up to the black person and say, "what are you doing here?" And then they ask him to prove that he's not there to rob anyone. 

 

 Now, I understand that a lot of folks probably don't see where this would be a problem. Which is itself a problem far greater than the incident itself.

 

 --------

 Bob Collins

 St. Paul, Minn.

 RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

 http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131875#131875

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

Bob, I don't think that's quite a fair comparison, however.



Two houses ago for a house showing, I took my dogs in the car and  

parked in a business parking lot from where I could watch my driveway  

between a few other houses.  I was waiting for the people to leave so  

I could go home.  But a strange car parked in an unexpected location  

with a strange-looking white guy inside drew the attention of one of  

my "neighbors", who summoned the police.  The police stopped by, I  

told them the story, they checked my ID and went about their merry way.



I wasn't offended.  I'd rather have the police check who the strange  

guy is than for the strange guy to be some sort of neighborhood stalker.



If they had asked me to come downtown with them or strip-searched me  

or something, I would have been upset.  But they talked to me for  

about 5 minutes and left me alone after that.



The report that the original poster made said he was "detained", but  

didn't say how long.  If it was a couple of hours, I'd be upset,  

too.  If it was 5 minutes, then I'm reminded of mountains and mole  

hills.



Furthermore, the O.P. said "if he flew a straight line" he didn't  

come that close to the power station.  Okay, but when is the last  

time any of us flew perfectly along our desired flight path.  I  

almost never do.  I might be as much as 5 miles to one side or the  

other and don't really care that much.  It's VFR, it's a nice day,  

and I know where I am and where I'm going -- that's good enough for  

me.  Did the O.P. fly right over the top of that nuclear plant?  We  

don't know.  From his report, he may not even know.



Where's the line?  I don't know.  I guess it depends on just how  

closely he came to the power plant and how long they detained him.   

And perhaps whether there had been recent intelligence of planned  

attacks on nuclear power plants.  5 miles away isn't worthy of  

notice.  Right over the top, then yeah I think it's reasonable to at  

least see who it was.  And that's what they did.



-Joe



On Aug 30, 2007, at 2:31 PM, Bob Collins wrote:



[quote] 

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>



 [quote="jpl(at)showpage.org"]I

 There's a big difference between 10 minutes to verify some

 information vs. several hours. 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Is there? You're a black person walking down a predominantly white  

 neighborhood. Some old bat who's afraid of black people calls the  

 cops and says "there's a black person in my neighborhood and I  

 think he's going to rob people."



 So the cops pull up to the black person and say, "what are you  

 doing here?" And then they ask him to prove that he's not there to  

 rob anyone.



 Now, I understand that a lot of folks probably don't see where this  

 would be a problem. Which is itself a problem far greater than the  

 incident itself.



 --------

 Bob Collins

 St. Paul, Minn.

 RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

 http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

You mean: "Such a state of facts that would lead a reasonable and prudent man to consentually entertain the belief that the person in question might have commited an involved offence". 

Sorry but the Police Academy was 40 years ago so it might have changed. (I'm sure the word "man" has been changed) 

Power plant area, airplanes over head, of unknown intent (photograph, testing the waters, casing the joint), activities out of the "ordinary".   Yep that's probable cause to do SOMETHING, like talk to those involved. Do Not Archive  KABONG 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

Date: 2007/08/30 Thu PM 12:48:44 CDT

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  Quote: 	

jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote:

> Sounds to me like the "system" worked.

> No one was arrested, tossed in jail without a hearing or bail nor beaten to a pulp. Detained, questioned & released, exactly what I would have done and expect the "Thin Blue Line" to continue to do.

Personally, I'm kind of a fan of the existence of "probable cause" before being detained.

--------

Bob Collins

St. Paul, Minn.

RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131840#131840

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote: 	
		   activities out of the "ordinary".   Yep 	




What in your opinion was out of the ordinary in the situation as described that would lead a prudent person to assume an intent to commit a crime?



Did you read the New York Times yesterday. It was about all the lawsuits that followed the cops rounding up people during the '04 Republican convention. In one case, a guy had just got off a bus from the airport to meet someone at the 5th Ave. library. He tried to cross 42nd street but the cops said "no, you can't cross here...so he tried to cross to the west...no go. South..no go.



It turned out the cops were slowly moving that orange netting behind everyone until everyone was penned in. Then the lead cop in charge told everyone to sit down. They were all arrested.



Anyway, a few hours later the guy who was just off the bus reads the arrest report and learns that he was arrested for "sitting down on 42nd Street blocking traffic."



Do they teach that sort of stuff at the academy?

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

I'm definitely against profiling, be it racial, ethnic, sexual.  But

then again, it strikes one as a little absurd that an 85 year old

grandmother would be given the same level of airport security scrutiny

as that of a 23 year old middle eastern with a freshly shaven beard. But

to draw any distinction is profiling (of course, to not draw any

distinction is not non-profiling...its just stupid).  So, this whole

idea of what profiling is and where it is too much is a tricky thing.

When does a little profiling become too much.  It's not easy to get a

firm footing on the slippery slope of profiling...even with a wide

stance.



Chuck



--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  jpl(at)showpage.org wrote: 	
		  

I wasn't offended.  I'd rather have the police check who the strange  

guy is than for the strange guy to be some sort of neighborhood stalker.

	




I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem identifying myself to authorities. I *do* have a problem, however, if I'm detained for not proving to someone that I'm NOT a stalker. 



Most of the time, my experience has been, cops are very courteous and while they don't volunteer the fact that I have the right not to provide them with the information they've asked me to voluntarily give to them, they don't pretend that I'm obligated to either.



I think it's important, frankly, that people understand their rights in the situations that have been described. Most of the time when we lament we've lost our rights, it's only because we willingly -- and sometime ignorantly --  gave them away.



Protecting one's rights while protecting one's safety are not mutually exclusive, although some people will claim it is.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

I would think that cars that have made a dozen trips back & forth in front as a slower speed than the "ordinary" traffic would have been stopped. Boats without fishing poles anchored at the rivers edge would also be out of the ordinary. Flying by and circling overhead are different things. So is being on the road vs driving around & around in the parking lot. Out of the "ordinary" is the key here. KABONG  Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net>

Date: 2007/08/30 Thu PM 01:22:07 CDT

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  Quote: 	

However, how many cars get stopped after just driving by the plant on

the road out front?  Boats sailing by?

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote:

>

>

>OR...could it just be that the citizen alert system is working. Reporting of anything that looks odd or out of place and expect or DEMAND that it be checked out. Sounds to me like the "system" worked.

>No one was arrested, tossed in jail without a hearing or bail nor beaten to a pulp. Detained, questioned & released, exactly what I would have done and expect the "Thin Blue Line" to continue to do. The sky isn't falling BUT that "could" have been a wolf on sheep's clothing.  Do Not Archive.   KABONG

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote: 	
		  So, this whole

idea of what profiling is and where it is too much is a tricky thing.

When does a little profiling become too much.  It's not easy to get a

firm footing on the slippery slope of profiling...even with a wide

stance. 	




Personally, many times I think there's some value in "profiling." There is at least a small case to be made that there's fact behind the profiling. It may be insufficient fact, but I think there's some fact.



In my state, you can't stop or search a car without a reason to do so.  So you can't stop me to see if I'm driving drunk, for example, unless I'm riding the white line (although the last time I did get stopped, the cop said I was riding the white line, but I wasn't. And I was sober. He just knew he had to indicate some sort of probable cause).



A plane that is flying in a straight line from Point A to Point B is not  guilty of anything unless there was a TFR around the nuclear plant. So when the authorities ask for the pilot's documents, he was only required to show -- not surrender -- them to an authorized member of the law enforcement community.



He was not required to prove he was up to no good.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

How 'bout those Red Sox!  



Deems



Do Not Archive

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  jpl(at)showpage.org wrote: 	
		  Right over the top, then yeah I think it's reasonable to at  

least see who it was.  And that's what they did.

	




If so, then they should make it illegal to fly right over the top.



It's interesting, though, that some lawmakers have just proposed such a rule. http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=37839&dcn=todaysnews



The response of the NRC?



"These are naturally robust facilities that are meant to withstand many types of natural disasters," said spokeswoman Holly Harrington. "Studies have shown that there's a low likelihood that it would penetrate to the extent that it would be a public safety hazard."



So it's stated by the agency in charge that, basically, a small plane poses no threat.  Further, the FAA guidelines to pilots say only they should not "linger" around a nuclear power plant, obviously giving blessing to fly around or over one...on a straight line.



So really there's no reason to disrupt the life of a law abiding person other than the individual fear of some lady somewhere. That's not good enough.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote: 	
		  Out of the "ordinary" is the key here. 	




I still don't understand, then, what was out of the ordinary about this pilot's actions.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

What happened in New York was completely ridiculous.  And now the guy  

who made it all happen is running for President.  If we want to get  

up in arms, 2004 in New York is definitely worth getting up in arms  

about.



But in this case, no one was arrested.  Someone had his ID checked  

because he flew near a sensitive area, possibly right over the top of  

someplace we've been politely asked to avoid.



There's a line between reasonable and unreasonable.  The mass arrests  

in New York City were clearly violations of constitutional rights.   

What I don't understand is why nothing came of it.  Very clearly,  

those arrests were on the wrong side of the line.



But there IS a line.  If I'm seen with a crowbar outside a bank at 2  

in the morning, I darned well expect the police to stop by and ask me  

why I have a crow bar and am hanging around outside the bank in the  

middle of the night.  In that case, the police are on the right side  

of the line.



So, where's the line?  I don't think it's clear that the police were  

out of line in this case.  All comes down to just how closely he came  

to the power station and how long they "detained" him.



-J

On Aug 30, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Bob Collins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote:

>  activities out of the "ordinary".   Yep

 What in your opinion was out of the ordinary in the situation as  

 described that would lead a prudent person to assume an intent to  

 commit a crime?



 Did you read the New York Times yesterday. It was about all the  

 lawsuits that followed the cops rounding up people during the '04  

 Republican convention. In one case, a guy had just got off a bus  

 from the airport to meet someone at the 5th Ave. library. He tried  

 to cross 42nd street but the cops said "no, you can't cross  

 here...so he tried to cross to the west...no go. South..no go.



 It turned out the cops were slowly moving that orange netting  

 behind everyone until everyone was penned in. Then the lead cop in  

 charge told everyone to sit down. They were all arrested.



 Anyway, a few hours later the guy who was just off the bus reads  

 the arrest report and learns that he was arrested for "sitting down  

 on 42nd Street blocking traffic."



 Do they teach that sort of stuff at the academy?



 --------

 Bob Collins

 St. Paul, Minn.

 RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

 http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

Holy crap, my RV list apparently got replaced with some BS politically incorrect argument list about why the world is going to hell in a hand basket.



Guys, airplane building, remember?  If this was the Cozy or Canard lists I would tell you to stop sniffing the epoxy.  Can we move on already?  Sheesh



Do not archive this unrelated to airplane building BS.

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

Bob Collins wrote:

[quote] 

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 

 [quote="jpl(at)showpage.org"]I There's a big difference between 10

 minutes to verify some information vs. several hours. 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 Is there? You're a black person walking down a predominantly white

 neighborhood. Some old bat who's afraid of black people calls the

 cops and says "there's a black person in my neighborhood and I think

 he's going to rob people."


	




And some folks are wondering why the non-VAF RV forums are dying?.....



Sam Buchanan

jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

The new RV are just to easy to build !! No need for any help forums anymore

.. Just snap them together like giant Airfix kits ...



Not like when I was young .. We had to carve our airplanes out of a solid

tree with nothing but a flint axe and a bit of string ... Not to mention how

we did the radio installation .. It was not even invented !!







Jan

Trying to build the "original" RV6 ...Started in 87 ... Made form blocks for

the ribs on the tail... made all the empennage spars etc... (everything 2

times ... etc...etc ... Should have had the forum then  ... Have a good

Labour day my US friends ...!!



--

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

What does the symbol for a Nuke plant look like on a sectional?  I don't 

know where this particular plant is located, so when I fly my Cessna 140 

to the annual convention next month in Benton Harbor, will I 

inadvertantly fly over the plant (assuming I don't see the cooling 

towers in time to avoid overflight) ?? 

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Joseph Larson wrote:

[quote] 

 Furthermore, the O.P. said "if he flew a straight line" he didn't  

 come that close to the power station.  Okay, but when is the last  

 time any of us flew perfectly along our desired flight path.  I  

 almost never do.  I might be as much as 5 miles to one side or the  

 other and don't really care that much.  It's VFR, it's a nice day,  

 and I know where I am and where I'm going -- that's good enough for  

 me.  Did the O.P. fly right over the top of that nuclear plant?  We  

 don't know.  From his report, he may not even know.

 Where's the line?  I don't know.  I guess it depends on just how  

 closely he came to the power plant and how long they detained him.   

 And perhaps whether there had been recent intelligence of planned  

 attacks on nuclear power plants.  5 miles away isn't worthy of  

 notice.  Right over the top, then yeah I think it's reasonable to at  

 least see who it was.  And that's what they did.

 -Joe

 On Aug 30, 2007, at 2:31 PM, Bob Collins wrote:

> 

>

> [quote="jpl(at)showpage.org"]I

> There's a big difference between 10 minutes to verify some

> information vs. several hours. 	  Quote: 	

>

> Is there? You're a black person walking down a predominantly white  

> neighborhood. Some old bat who's afraid of black people calls the  

> cops and says "there's a black person in my neighborhood and I  think 

> he's going to rob people."

>

> So the cops pull up to the black person and say, "what are you  doing 

> here?" And then they ask him to prove that he's not there to  rob 

> anyone.

>

> Now, I understand that a lot of folks probably don't see where this  

> would be a problem. Which is itself a problem far greater than the  

> incident itself.

>

> --------

> Bob Collins

> St. Paul, Minn.

> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

>

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

Knew it was only a matter of time before the list police showed up.



But speaking of infringement of rights 



do not archive



On Aug 30, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Sam Buchanan wrote:



[quote] 



 Bob Collins wrote:

> 

> <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

> [quote="jpl(at)showpage.org"]I There's a big difference between 10

> minutes to verify some information vs. several hours. 	  Quote: 	
		  

> Is there? You're a black person walking down a predominantly white

> neighborhood. Some old bat who's afraid of black people calls the

> cops and says "there's a black person in my neighborhood and I think

> he's going to rob people."

 And some folks are wondering why the non-VAF RV forums are dying?.....



 Sam Buchanan

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