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EFIS as only reference???
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kuffel(at)cyberport.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Bruce,



<< I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe 

me, your rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your 

hand reaches for the master switch. I don't know how you plan to 

wire your airplane but I stand with my earlier assessment. You 

need a backup AI powered by a different system. It's so much 

easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go through your 

rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do it 

on the ground. >>



Don't disagree about needing backup but don't think we need all 

the extra stuff you imply.  Am comfortable with the setup I'm 

putting on my GlaStar Sportsman:



One alternator, one battery (well technically, 3 batteries), one 

manual (guarded) switch for the essential bus source, one Dynon 

EFIS/EMS, one hand held (panel mount) Garmin, one Trio autopilot 

with auto pitch trim control.



Come a failure of Dynon, Garmin or Trio I declare a precautionary 

emergency and head to nearest VFR weather or nearest approach.



Come the smell of smoke I rationally hit the master switch.  My 

Dynon and Garmin switch to and continue to run on their fully 

charged internal batteries.  This process is tested every time I 

shut down so I know it will work.  I have 30 seconds to press any 

button on each unit for them to continue on internal batteries.



Now there is over an hour to:  fly the airplane, gather my wits 

about me, turn off all electrical including all avionics at their 

boxes, switch the essential bus to direct battery connection, if 

needed turn on the instrument/cockpit lighting (about 100 ma), 

then turn on one at a time the autopilot head, avionics master 

(sorry Bob) and essential avionics (usually only the Icom Comm 

but also perhaps the ILS receiver for the shortest time possible) 

declare a real emergency and head to nearest VFR weather or 

nearest approach.  Anytime smoke/smell reappears in the above 

process the offending power sink is turned back off.



The only steam gauges on the panel are airspeed and altitude. 

But they are not IFR backup, I need those numbers for safe VFR 

flight and landing.



Tom Kuffel

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Michael,



You've been listening to the people who have had problems, possibly because

of installation issues. There are many happy P/E-mag users around, I'm one

of them.



Peter



--

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Mike,



You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25

aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards

far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They

are not comparable.



Regards, Peter



--

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Ron is a Line Captain flying B7XX for UAL. I'm sure that standby EFIS of

which you talk is higher priced than my entire panel.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org

 



--

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Not necessarily, an EFIS with internal power should gracefully ask if 

you really want to shutdown and give you some time to acknowledge (at 

least my Dynon does) but I agree you should have a system able to cope 

with that, whatever setup you choose. And I agree also with Bruce in 

case of smoke there is not a lot time of thinking you switch it off and 

for IMC the design of your plane needs to take that in account. How 

that's done, to everyone its own but make a good assessment before you 

test it in real life and yes training is for sure as important as the 

technical redundancy!



Werner



Bruce Gray wrote:

[quote] 



 I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when

 all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The pungent

 smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?

 Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the

 airplane, but with what? Turn all electrical whizzies off, switch or pull

 breakers and turn the master back on. Bring up the first EFIS and hope you

 don't smell anything. But wait, it takes 2 minutes to boot, not good. Still

 have to fly the airplane. Hope it's not bumpy or you have a high ceiling to

 recover before the splat.



 Give me a vacuum backup AI gyro and all you'll have left is a dark and

 stormy night story.



 Bruce

 www.Glasair.org

  



 --

nghertner(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

 	  Quote: 	

 Nancy Ghertner wrote:

> 

> <nghertner(at)verizon.net>

> 

> As DJ probably knows from the Glasair user group, I slowly became a Bruce

> Gray convert, particularly after I had a gyro failure on my Blue Mountain

> EFIS/one and a complete and sudden failure with my "backup" Dynon D10. I

> have backup standard instruments but the failure of both EFIS's did occur.

> And that was on the ground.

 Hi Lory,

 Are you saying that both the Dynon and the Blue Mountain unit failed at

 the same exact time?

 -Dj

 do not archive

It seems to be true. I tested my panel one day and everything appeared fine.

As I started taxi testing the blue mountain said I was in a spin and the

Dynon remained black. The blue mountain went back for replacement of the y

axis gyro and returned in 2 weeks. The Dynon had some of its guts replaced

but it took in excess of one month to be returned. All connections were good

and the internal battery would not even start it up.

Lory Ghertner

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Dj Merrill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ernest Christley wrote:

   

> But...2 minutes to reboot?  I thought the Grand Rapids was

> ridiculously long at 30 seconds or so (don't remember exactly).  The

> Dynon comes up and orients itself fast enough not to matter.

>     



 Hi Ernest,

     Actually, some of the EFIS units do take 2 minutes to calibrate

 (time from power up until they are useful).  

   

WOW!
	


I haven't seen one of those, but...WOW!

I'm sure that is useful for  someone, but I still think 30sec was way to 

long for an EFIS aimed at GA aircraft.

-- 

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in 

a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, 

thoroughly used up, totally worn out, with chocolate in one hand and wine in 

the other, loudly proclaiming 'WOO HOO What a Ride!'"

--Unknown

Fergus Kyle

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Cheers, 

	The subject title may be a misnomer since most of us have other

indicators installed independent of the EFIS.

	My support falls to Old Bob, with a small corollary. We learned

"Needle, Ball and Airspeed" - simple instruments which in a pinch can be

used to save a life (or two). This has been hashed out before. A PDA can

replace the EFIS screen or an AoA gauge can replace the airspeed.

	So my lifetime of flying corresponds with his and says:

Needle, ball and airspeed/AoA now.

Ferg

Europa A064

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

True, but the SNR on failures and problems is still too high for me personally to use in a "most" weather capable mission profile.  Personal choice.  If my profile was day VFR I might have a different opinion.



Michael



--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Peter,



How do you know!  I'm sure all that part 25 stuff has nice stamps on the

paperwork but it is still put together by people.  How do you know the

stuff that we buy won't make the standard?  Having to meet FAA standards

cost money, don't you believe that a product could meet a standard

without the government?  For example, the autopilots out there certified

for use in small planes are in my 28 years of experience less or equal

to the Truetrak product.  Also the Chelton system is certified to part

25 standards by TSO and is under $100,000.



Mike



--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

I have seen a dual E-mag failure!  Fortunately their was a road in the

hills and nothing was lost except a few years of life.



Mike



--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Bruce,



I address the statement " Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no

matter which brand, and you'll

find

a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell

you

perfectly good reasons why.  EVERY system I've looked into has its share

of

"boy am I glad I had a backup" stories." 

Mike

--

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Yes but what exactly do you mean by a dual failure?....Did they both

quit or did just one of them lose its timing and cause hight CHT's

through detonation...That in itself is not a dual failure of course but

it can bring the airplane down if you don't recognise the issue and shut

the bad mag down.



That's what happened to an RV 9 I believe....and it wasn't due to an

installation issues.



The above scenario did happen to me although the engine kept running. I

have over 150 hours since the recent upgrades and I have not heard of

any further issues exept for magnets that can become dislodged, which I

believe has also now been remedied.



As of right now I am satisfied with their reliability.



frank



--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

The airplane was unable to maintain altitude and therefore forced to

land on something other than an airport.  It was a good thing it was

day, vmc, and a road was near by.



Mike



--

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

In a message dated 09/18/2007 1:41:05 AM Central Daylight Time, peter(at)sportingaero.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25

aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards

far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They

are not comparable. 	


 >>>

  

 "This aircraft is Amateur-Built and does not comply with the Federal Safety Regulations for "Standard Aircraft" because OUR Standards are HIGHER!"

  

 

  

 Mark-do not archive



See whattarget="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Well said.  I’m glad someone got it…  

   

--

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

I don’t think that is correct. The heavy iron EFIS systems are designed to the same standards as our little airplane systems. Those are DO 160 (electrical protection) and DO 178 (Software coding and testing). There are some under 100k systems that meet those standards.  

     

Bruce  

www.Glasair.org  

  

   

--

Paul Valovich

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 75

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

I’m at the wiring stage of my RV-8A project:   

<![if !supportLists]>Ø       <![endif]>Z-13/8 with either dual Lightspeeds or one Lightspeed/one P-mag (anyone used the latter configuration?)  

<![if !supportLists]>Ø       <![endif]>AFS-3500,   

<![if !supportLists]>Ø       <![endif]>TruTrak ADI Pilot II  

<![if !supportLists]>Ø       <![endif]>Garmin 496  

<![if !supportLists]>Ø       <![endif]>Heated pitot   

<![if !supportLists]>Ø       <![endif]>Back up airspeed, altimeter and VSI  

   

The underlying design philosophy: The EFIS is going to fail during this flight; and if in the goo, what are you going to do?  

     EFIS fails; electrical system      ok – use the ADI and 496.  
Primary electrical system failure      – Switch to essential bus; know battery status  
Total electrical system failure      / or simultaneous EFIS / ADI failure – Rely on EFIS battery and 496      battery to land asap.  
Total electrical system failure      and total EFIS failure (no battery backup) – use battery-powered 496      instruments display; know where the ground is and get VFR asap.  
Total electrical failure, and both      EFIS and 496 battery backups fail – One of the reasons God invented      life insurance - sometimes it just ain’t your day.   

   

The point is – in our experimental world it’s all about probabilities of failure and risk management. Risk cannot be eliminated, only understood and managed.   

   

Just my biased opinions.  

Paul Valovich  

N192NM Reserved (again)  

      [quote][b]

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Paul is one of the brightest people on this site.  He is able to see the forest through the trees.  

   

Mike  

   

--

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference???

Options,

     I will be using the new Aspen Avionics PFD (now) and MFD  when released. The advanced MFD provides the backup instruments when #1 dies.  Both have built in battery backup which is charged by the system when things are  working normally (assume most days). 

     My engine is a Subaru which is equally dependent on  juice and arguably more important than a few gauges if I can actually see out  the window. My MFD will be slaved to the backup system per Z19. Per crash  landing instruction, nose goes towards the ground and you land as tail low as  possible to save your neck. I have never yet stalled an aircraft with the  nose pointing down - not to say it has not been done. Bottom line - if I am  satisfied that z-19 is providing reasonable redundant protection to my engine, I  need to have the same security with my efis. 

     To help my lights and engine out situation Aspen has  included a backup GPS inside their PFD and backup MFD. So, lights out, engine  out - headed for the trees tail low at least I can push the nearest button to  see where I could have gone.

     One thing only Paul has mentioned is probability.  Remember that from statistics class? Yup, that's what the insurance companies  use to figure out your life expectancy, when you will crash etc. I have no  sample data from the nay-sayers of e-Panel only flight indicating more  than 50 hours a year and specific exposure to the even the slightest risk  (night, wx, snow, almost ice, etc). I do most of my flying at night because I  like it - less traffic, tower has time to talk to me, no sun in my eyes etc. Is  it risky? Absolutely, but I am always fascinated on my return by the  absolute barren stillness at my airport (200 planes are sleeping). Where is all  the risk? sleeping in the hangar? You can't eliminate risk, only mitigate it. If  your exposure is incredibly low and you have done everything in your power to  control your environment - you have nothing to mitigate  against.

     To the earlier statement about cost, big iron and  whatever the Aspen system is certified for most aircraft and will certainly  be found in much bigger carbon fibre than mine. On top of that it cost about the  same as a good set (mid-continent or similar) of six pack gauges.  Their system is certified without the use of backup steam gauges. Does that mean  it's perfect? 'course not, but nothing else is either. We make our decisions and  move forward with them.

  

 P.S.  As far as an independent backup gauge is concerned, I have an  independent AOA meter which if used properly can be used to control speed  and angle when crash landing in clear weather. Where I live (PHL) you probably  won't like your landing choices anyway, but at least your glide angle will be  really nice.

  

 By the  way it was a wonderful but sad week at Reno. If you didn't hear families  lost three pilots to various forces. The first incident occurred Tuesday right  after take-off in absolutely perfect weather. Engine stopped, plane stalled,  pilot killed. The plane stopped 30 yards from the runway. That's probability. At  this point I am not overly perplexed about the security of what Aspen has spent  20 million dollars developing. In a year or two we'll all be using those crazy  new lithium-nano batteries to run the entire airplane.

  

 Glenn

  

  

  

     

 [quote]   

   --

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