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Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection
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brinker(at)suddenlinkmail
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. 



Randy

---- The Kuffels <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I hesitate to get involved in a "discussion" with George 

 (gmcjetpilot).  He is correct about type certified aircraft 

 needing a "nonstabilized magnetic compass" but homebuilts only 

 needing a "Magnetic Direction Indicator"  But his statement  "you 

 can fly without a compass at all in an experimental for VFR day. 

 However for VFR night/IFR you do need a compass" is in error.

 

 AOPA always advises in their CFI refresher clinics to reply to 

 any FAR question with "I don't know.  Let's read what they say."

 

 Parts 23 (General Aviation and Commuter) and 25 (Transport) cover 

 certification of aircraft.  They contain the only reference in 

 the FARs to a compass equipment requirement.  And they don't 

 apply to homebuilt experimental aircraft.  By reference, we do 

 have to comply with 91.205 which covers required equipment for 

 day VFR, night VFR and  IFR (day or night) among other conditions.

 

 91.205(b) is day VFR.  91.205(b)(3) requires a "Magnetic 

 Direction Indicator" without any other qualification.  This is 

 the legal authority to use a Dynon in lieu of a wet compass.

 

 91.205(c) covers night VFR.  It says you must have the stuff in 

 91.205(b) and then some other stuff (lights, etc.) but no other 

 reference to direction.  But we have already established 

 91.205(b) doesn't require a compass.  Thus neither does 91.205(c) 

 for night VFR.

 

 91.205(d) is for IFR.  Same story.  It requires the stuff in 

 91.205(b) and, for night, the stuff in 91.205(c) and then a lot 

 of other stuff without reference to any compass.  91.205(d)(9) 

 does require a "Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro 

 or equivalent)".  The "or equivalent" is what lets the Dynon also 

 be acceptable for IFR.

 

 Bottom line there is no *legal* requirement for a homebuilt 

 experimental aircraft to have a compass for day, night or IFR. 

 But I still have one to avoid hassles (and as a backup).

 

 The idea of temporarily mounting a cheap compass might put you in 

 a gray area.  It can be argued if your plane was certified with a 

 compass then it must always have a compass.  Removal might give 

 an out to an insurance company or a justification to a "helpful" 

 FAA ramp or accident inspector.

 

 Tom Kuffel

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

I completely agree. Why do some fret over such trivial bs when there are

much bigger problems behind your panel? If you want to be a real cheapo,

just borrow one from your neighbor. For the price of my 330 transponder

I could decorate the hanger with compasses.



Next topic please



--

kuffel(at)cyberport.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Dj and others say:



<< experimental aircraft flying day VFR do not have to comply 

with 91.205.  Your Operating Limitations on your

experimental aircraft generally say something like "After 

completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately 

equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 

91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only". >>



My operating limitations say:



"The aircraft shall contain .. equipment as required for type of 

flight, in accordance with FAR # 91.205."  No exceptions for me.



The moral here is better check your own specific operating 

limitations before thinking a generalized table is valid for you.



But remember, the question was what is legal not reasonable.  My 

planes always have a compass even if it's not "required".



Tom Kuffel

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

brinker(at)suddenlinkmail.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



          The cost of a Whisky compass compared to other instruments most experimental builders purchase is rather moot. Why not just install one that can be removed and installed in seconds. If ramp checked one could just reach to the readilly available compass and slide it into place. I don't think there is anything stated in the FAR's requiring the compass to be permanently mounted. If ramp checked one could use an excuse something like "I dismounted it for better visability while landing". This is what I plan to do. Hopefully it will keep everyone happy. 

   

The hassle isn't having it on the panel, I would think.  It is having to 
	


install it in the first place.  If you've already gone through the 

fabrication to have a place for it, why would you store it in the 

baggage compartment 8*)



I'm going to use a marine type compass on my project.  One like 

http://www.fishreports.net/fishing-gear/images/marine-compass.jpg



I'll cut a hole in the top of my dash that the compass will recess down 

into, right even with the bottom of the globe part.  Just a half ball 

above the dash.  It is just an ornamental piece in this day'n'age, so 

might as well make it an ornament.

enewton57(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

I'm NOT "fretting" over the money - I'm fretting over cluttering up my 

glareshield with something I don't really need.  Sorry if I irritated you.



"Next topic" is fine with me.



Eric Newton



---

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

In a message dated 11/25/2007 5:05:29 PM Central Standard Time, gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Call the EAA legal department. They don't work in a vacuum, they work with the FAA. 	


 >>>

  

 Debate this all you want- bottom line is that when the DAR is standing in front of you, inspection done and paperwork sitting on the desk awaiting a signature and he/she sez "I'm sorry, but you don't have (blahblahblahblah) so I can't issue your certificate- but get into compliance and make another appointment (and bring a check for another $100 for my trouble) and I'll slip you the pink...

  

 You folks know your airplanes inside & out- does it make any sense to NOT get to know your DAR and what he/she expects to see on the appointed day beforehand?

  

 Avoid surprises- preflight your DAR...

  

 Mark



Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Since I will soon be spending a lot of time with my DAR, I took a lot of interest in this discussion and I think I learned something out of it. Thanks to all of you, especially Ron Parigor. The more I learn about the FAR's the better off I am, in my opinion, and this group is a wealth of knowledge on the subject. I will be very careful when I read my op limits.  



Rick Girard



On Nov 26, 2007 7:26 PM, Eric Newton <enewton57(at)cableone.net (enewton57(at)cableone.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Newton" <enewton57(at)cableone.net (enewton57(at)cableone.net)>



I'm NOT "fretting" over the money - I'm fretting over cluttering up my 

glareshield with something I don't really need.  Sorry if I irritated you.



"Next topic" is fine with me.



Eric Newton



---

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

In a message dated 11/25/2007 2:34:20 PM Central Standard Time, echristley(at)nc.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I've heard rumors that a $2, suction-cup base, water-filled compass from 

the dollar stare is sufficient to satisfy the bean counters. 	


 >>>

  

 Correctamundo- just don't forget a correction card (or reasonable facsimile thereof) as some DARs sweat the details...

  

 *-)

  

 Mark do not archive

  

 ps- what're you staring at? <G>!



Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

11/27/2007



Hello Tom, You wrote: "The aircraft shall contain .. equipment as required 

for type of

flight, in accordance with FAR # 91.205."  No exceptions for me."



Good advice. Here is what FAA Order 8130.2F, up to date with Change 3 dated 

4/18/2007 incorporated, says should be written into your aircraft's 

Operating Limitations:



"153. b. ( After completion of phase I flight testing, unless 

appropriately equipped for night

and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205, this aircraft is to be 

operated under VFR, day only."



You can read this on the FAA's own web site here:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/1ba6ee60e8779bd7862572c90063c0ac/$FILE/Order%208130.2f%20incorp%20with%20chg%203.pdf



It would appear that your FAA Inspector or DAR did not follow the FAA order 

when he wrote your aircraft's Operating Limitations.



'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and 

understand knowledge."



--------------------------------------------------------



Time: 03:32:22 PM PST US

From: The Kuffels <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Dj and others say:



<< experimental aircraft flying day VFR do not have to comply

with 91.205.  Your Operating Limitations on your

experimental aircraft generally say something like "After

completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately

equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with

91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only". >>



My operating limitations say:



"The aircraft shall contain .. equipment as required for type of

flight, in accordance with FAR # 91.205."  No exceptions for me.



The moral here is better check your own specific operating

limitations before thinking a generalized table is valid for you.



But remember, the question was what is legal not reasonable.  My

planes always have a compass even if it's not "required".



Tom Kuffel

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

As a pilot / mechanic / builder I have worked to certify more then a dozen homebuilt and exhibition airplanes.  This is the best advice I have read on this site so far.  Get to know your DAR or FAA rep before they show up.  It costs a lot more time and money to change inspectors after they show up.  

   

Mike Larkin  

   

--

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Amen!

  

 The magnetic Gyro in my  Dynon backed up with my GNS430 and trutrak autopilot was more than adequate for  Mr FSDO...I.e no compass required...I just called him up defore the day to  confirm.

  

 Frank



   From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Fiveonepw(at)aol.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:13  PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:  Re: Compass Requirements for FAA  Inspection

 

  In a message dated 11/25/2007 5:05:29 PM Central Standard Time,  gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Call the EAA legal department. They don't work in a vacuum, they    work with the FAA. 	


 >>>

  

 Debate this all you want- bottom line is that when the DAR is standing in  front of you, inspection done and paperwork sitting on the desk awaiting a  signature and he/she sez "I'm sorry, but you don't have (blahblahblahblah) so I  can't issue your certificate- but get into compliance and make another  appointment (and bring a check for another $100 for my trouble) and I'll slip  you the pink...

  

 You folks know your airplanes inside & out- does it make any sense to  NOT get to know your DAR and what he/she expects to see on the appointed day  beforehand?

  

 Avoid surprises- preflight your DAR...

  

 Mark



   Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

[quote]



.matronics.com/contribution

ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ics.com



[b]

brinker(at)suddenlinkmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

I personally do not want a panel mounted compass to take up 

more space. And I do not want it taking up windscreen space either.  With 

all the fabrication and time involved in building a panel, building another 

bracket is a small thing to me.  From what I gather your installation will 

be faily elaborate, mine will not be. I never said anything about storing it 

in a baggage compartment. I said "If ramp checked one could just reach to 

the readilly available compass and slide it into place." a compass is 

relatively small and could be stored any number of places within reach. By 

some slim chance it could even come in handy at times. So it would not be 

wise to put it in a baggage compartment out of reach. A simple quick release 

mount on top of the panel will work out well for me I think and it sounds as 

though your method will work well for you.

              But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of the 

dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since it will 

protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future device you may want 

to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that also but figured I would 

mention. If you have plenty of left over panel space this would probably be 

of no consequence.



Randy

---

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

I don't understand all this reluctance to install a compass. If you don't

have an EFIS or a slaved HSI then your going to want to reset your DG every

15 minutes or so. If most of you would sit in your airplane and look out the

windshield, you'd see that a compass mounted on your glare shield would not

take any sky viewing area at all. It would sit in the area blocked by your

nose cowling.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org

 



--

brinker(at)suddenlinkmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

I will not have a DG I will have an EFIS with magnemometer. I 

don't think anyone would argue with you of the nessesity of a compass with a 

DG. The thing is that the far's are rather sketchy. As can be seen by the 

arguments this thread has caused. One could be ramp checked in different 

local's and each FAA inspector may have his opinion on how to read the FAR 

also. I do agree that the compass will not take up much viewing area when 

dash mounted but why permanantly mount one when it will be used very little 

if at all.

           Basicly all I am driving at is that if in doubt a simple easy to 

build quick release dash mount might be the way to go. There is no way of 

changing a mind that has been made up but there are ways to compromise. Each 

to his own. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Personnaly I think 

this simple subject has been beaten to death.  Put a fork in me and roll me 

over I'm done.



Randy

---

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Randy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                But be aware that anything you recesss into the top of 

 the dash could accually take up panel space you may need later, since 

 it will protrude downward and could be an abstacal to any future 

 device you may want to mount. I am sure you probably thought of that 

 also but figured I would mention. If you have plenty of left over 

 panel space this would probably be of no consequence.



Good point, Randy.  Everyone's situation is different.
	




The underside of my panel looks like this:  

http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelUnderside.jpg



The front side looks like:  

http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/InstrumentPanelComplete.jpg



I already have the GPS antennae slid into a pocket there.  I found a 

compass at Autozone for $9 last night.  It actually has compensators to 

adjust it.  It's about 1.5" high and 2" square.  Only about 1" will need 

to protrude above the panel, and the rest could well fit between a 

couple other instruments.

brinker(at)suddenlinkmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Ernest you are building a very interesting plane. I'll 

bet you will have a hard time with a quick arrival or departure at the small 

airports with the inquisitive airport bums. lol

                  Very nice job on the panel. If I need advise on building 

with resin I know who to contact.



Randy



---

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Randy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <brinker(at)suddenlinkmail.com>



                   Ernest you are building a very interesting plane. 

 I'll bet you will have a hard time with a quick arrival or departure 

 at the small airports with the inquisitive airport bums. lol

                  Very nice job on the panel. If I need advise on 

 building with resin I know who to contact.



Thank you, but be aware that I'm careful not to take to many closeups of 
	


my resin work. 8*)

enewton57(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

My Dynon EFIS has a separate, remote magnetic compass that feeds it heading 

info.  My feeling is - No need for another magnetic compass when you already 

have one.



Eric Newton



---

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

What's a DG?



--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: Compass Requirements for FAA Inspection

Good Evening mlas,

  

 I don't know if you have your tongue in your cheek, but I am confident he  was referring to a  Directional Gyroscope

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8503   

  In a message dated 11/27/2007 7:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,  mlas(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  What's a    DG?

	






Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

  [quote][b]

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