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AGING AIRCRAFT
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john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

 	  Quote: 	
		   John V.....



 At one time I thought "Mr. RPM had a maint Facility in Costa Rica doing 

 Twin Commander wing spar caps at a bargain price (relatively speaking).


	




Hi Milt,



I think there is still a "bargain spar cap replacement deal", but the 

bargain is right around $60k. I'm really hoping that won't be necessary 

until 35,000 hours or so.

YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

In a message dated 3/13/2006 9:40:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  

cschuerm(at)cox.net writes:



I  believe should be uncovered and 

inspected every decade or so.  The  vertical hangars behind the firewall 

on the front of the spar - for  example - have probably never been looked 

at on most  Commanders.

Thanks Chris  Another area is the flap/aileron/rudder and elevator  hangars.  

The aileron hangars have been problematic for some years, the  rest need a 

good look.  I did an appraisal on an 840 Commander in Cartrgena  Columbia.  The 

aileron hangars had corroded clear off and the ailerons were  laying on the 

ground right were they had fallen off!!   jb

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

Yet more proof that regardless of how robust an aircraft is, some people 

just shouldn't be pilots!!!



/John

---

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

I hate hearing that. As a certifiable Tool Nut, it breaks my heart to hear 

about good tools being abused in that fashion.



/John

---

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks Chris  Another area is the flap/aileron/rudder and elevator  hangars.  


	


Wow - just fell right off?  Sounds like that would have been a good 

subject airplane for overall damage investigation.

Interesting that there's no AD on the flap hangars isn't it?  Seems like 

almost every  other airplane has some form of "inspect for 

cracks/damage/etc" in this area (my Aztec included).  Just another one 

of those alloy plate/extrusion areas with a high load and subject to water.

chris

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

I was just patting myself on the back for being mature enough to not 

capitalize on that typo .



/John

---

wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

Folks,

Re. Richard's 680E, at least he has the luxury of an aircraft 

corrosion proofed "to MilSpec" standards, the 680Es bought by the old 

Australian Department of Civil Aviation were all corrosion proofed 

during manufacture, and it shows. Lucky chap !! The contrast sits 

right behind him, my 500A, " corrosion proofed"  after manufacture, I 

suspect well after.



My Commander experience says ( amongst other things) that every lap 

joint is suspect ( as well as the other comments so far). I am also 

having to replace a number of fluted skins on aileron/flaps and 

horizontal stab/elevators.



In my opinion you have to be very careful about the Australian 

approach to " hard" fatigue lives, "they got religion".



But having said that, there are some really serious problems with 

C400 series, and various Beech, particularly Barons, all a 

combination of a hard life, corrosion and cracking. An emerging story 

is serious cracking in pressure cracking in a number of Kingairs, 

several here are probably headed for the scrap heap. On one recent 

402B, just about every fastener hole around the engine/undercarriage 

mounts and spar structure had to be reworked, and there was much 

replacing of various bits of the structure. The same aeroplane had 

extensive corrosion for most of the length ( height) in the fin.



We are also seeing VERY serious corrosion in some strutted Cessna, if 

I was to buy a C172/182, having seen what I have seen, I would factor 

in stripping down both wings, it is the sandwich spar from the root 

to just outboard of the fuel tank, and one aircraft that had to be 

rebuilt was an ex-USAF version of the 172, that had spent most of its 

life in the dry reaches of inland Texas.



An entirely subjective comment ( a personal opinion, no science 

behind it) is that the bigger Pipers seem to throw up fewer 

unexpected horror stories.



An interesting issue arises about inspection techniques, many of the 

FAA " GA approved" inspection techniques are about a generation out 

of date, compared to Boeing/Airbus "manufacturer's maintenance 

manual" techniques, which causes us quite a few problems, as some 

CASA individuals ( inspectors) are in the habit of demanding 

compliance with FAA/SID in detail, including use of ultrasonic crack 

detection that has been superseded by equipment that does not require 

every fastener to be removed. Needless to say, the practitioners of 

the black magic of ultrasonic and eddy current crack detection have 

long since junked their superseded equipment.



Cheers,

Bill Hamilton





At 23:26 13/03/2006, you wrote:

[quote]

<barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.uk>



Hi John,



Nope, I'm sorry, but I don't have the parts count for a Commander.



But, if you bring yours to the next Fly-In, we could strip it down 

and find out!



Maybe 'down-under' Richard has an 'ball-park' figure after his extensive

restoration of a 680E?



Best Regards,

Barry



---

barry.collman(at)air-brit
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

Just JimBob keeping abreast of the situation.



Then, we're fortunate that he's so up-front about everything.



Seriously though, this once again emphasises the need for owners to join the 

Flight Group. The more Members we have, the more the FAA are likely to take 

notice of us.



It also emphasises, yet again, that we have a Leader who is truly looking after 

your interests.



Once again, as WinG Commander Gordon said, we have to say a big "Thank You" to 

Jim.



Best Regards,

Barry



---

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

W J R HAMILTON wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   the 680Es bought by the old 

 Australian Department of Civil Aviation were all corrosion proofed 

 during manufacture


	


That's an interesting bit of trivia that I was unaware of.  Thanks!



 	  Quote: 	
		   We are also seeing VERY serious corrosion in some strutted Cessna


	


I've seen some pretty serious corrosion here in the midwest lately on 

Cessnas as well.  Cessna did virtually nothing for corrosion-proofing 

except on the few birds set up for float ops.  Amazing how much 

corrosion I've seen inside the wings of Cessnas that have been hangared 

in Oklahoma their entire lives.  Just condensation will do it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   the bigger Pipers seem to throw up fewer 

 unexpected horror stories.


	


That's been my observation as well Bill.  Piper did a pretty darn good 

job of slathering zinc chromate all over in many of their models.  I 

havn't found any corossion at all in my '65 Aztruk even after a total 

tear-down restoration.  Pitty that everybody didn't do the same.



chris

WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

Just want you guys to know,as a new owner I appreciate learning about my  680 

and other commanders as well. I appreciate the opportunity to read your  

comments Again,many thanks.Gil Walker .

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

Gil,

You're not scared stiff yet?



---

YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

In a message dated 3/13/2006 1:27:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,  

barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.uk writes:



Once  again, as WinG Commander Gordon said, we have to say a big "Thank You" 

to  

Jim.

Thanks guys.  jb

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

I've stopped laughing now. Oh, the depth of the intellect in this group.



---

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

I hear you, Nico....but do you think that Principal Fatigue Engineers ever 

have this much fun?



---

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

You know, I've watched that typo for a while and didn't know what to do with

it. It took an expert to finish that job.

I don't think other flyers have this much. It's an honor to be among these

guys.



Nico



---

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

As much as I admire WCG, I have to give credit where it's due. Sir Barry, in 

his typical British fashion, capitalized on that typo with exceptionally 

droll doublespeak, nearly knocking me off my chair.



Sir Barry, you're the best!



/John



---

YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

In a message dated 3/13/2006 10:58:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,  

john(at)vormbaum.com writes:  

capitalized on that typo 

WHHHAT TYPOR>?/?

barry.collman(at)air-brit
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

Pesronally JmiBob, I dno'nt fink your Speel-chequer is wurking coorektly.



Try re-boobing your machine.



Best Regards,

Barry



---

Barshalom(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

Please change the subject kine for these emails to:



AGING AIRCRAFT OWNER/ENTHUSIASTS



Thank you

YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: AGING AIRCRAFT

In a message dated 3/14/2006 10:06:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,  

barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.uk writes:



Try  re-boobing

MY MACHINEE DOENT HAUV ANY BOOBS!!  I guiess i need to upgraid.   jb

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