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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Panel questions

 	  notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote: 	
		  Is the remote compas a "Magnetic direction device".??

--- 	


Yes

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: Panel questions

I agree and thats where I m coming from...

However from what I read, "EXPERIMENTAL" changes everything..

SW

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Panel questions

 	  notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote: 	
		  I agree and thats where I m coming from...

However from what I read, "EXPERIMENTAL" changes everything..

SW

--- 	




Not everything. (a) spells out the exceptions to 91.205 and experimental isn't one of those. That said, we all know the different FSDO make different rulings about all sorts of issues all the time. There is no reason to think that a DAR or individual FAA inspector couldn't do the same. But let's say you DAR (who isn't even an FAA employee) gives you an AW certificate when your plane doesn't have the equipment required in 91.205. A year or so later you fly some place and get ramp checked. At this point you are well and truly screwed. You will get violated and it will stick because the FAR is really pretty clear. 



Sec. 91.205



Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.



(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the

instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

Amdt. 91-296, Eff. 8/6/07

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: Panel questions

I ll drink to that !

Heck,  I ll drink to anything......

I do have the stuff :  ASI, ALT, Compass, Engine instruments etc...   I m 

old school......



Steve Weston

A20

---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Panel questions

So,  in your aircraft you HAVE a MEL....

This list will say that there are no instruments....

I wonder if that would satisfy a ramp check..??....

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Panel questions

 	  notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote: 	
		  So,  in your aircraft you HAVE a MEL....

This list will say that there are no instruments....

I wonder if that would satisfy a ramp check..??....

--- 	




Nope. Because no acceptable to the FAA MEL would have a list that didn't at least include the instruments listed in 91.205.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Panel questions

Niether experimental nor LSA aircraft have standard airworthiness certificates C so FWIW C 91.205 does not apply.  That said C why would you want to fly without those bare minima?

[quote] Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Panel questions

 From: wrgiacona(at)gmail.com

 Date: Mon C 29 Sep 2008 06:54:12 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

 notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote:

 > I agree and thats where I m coming from..

 > However from what I read C "EXPERIMENTAL" changes everything..

 > SW

 > ---

 Not everything. (a) spells out the exceptions to 91.205 and experimental isn't one of those. That said C we all know the different FSDO make different rulings about all sorts of issues all the time. There is no reason to think that a DAR or individual FAA inspector couldn't do the same. But let's say you DAR (who isn't even an FAA employee) gives you an AW certificate when your plane doesn't have the equipment required in 91.205. A year or so later you fly some place and get ramp checked. At this point you are well and truly screwed. You will get violated and it will stick because the FAR is really pretty clear. 

 Sec. 91.205

 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

 (a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section C no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the

 instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation C and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

 Amdt. 91-296 C Eff. 8/6/07

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=206731#206731

 > 

See how Windows connects the people C information C and fun that are part of your life. See Now   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Panel questions

 	  frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C wrote: 	
		  Niether experimental nor LSA aircraft have standard airworthiness certificates C so FWIW C 91.205 does not apply.ï¿½ That said C why would you want to fly without those bare minima? 	


  I read that paragraph at least three times looking for just that issue and yet never found it. I knew there was a reason I didn't go to law school.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Panel questions

If you'd gone to law school you would have learned to read that paragraph C so no more excuses.  Email me for a link to the LSAT schedule and a letter of recommendation to the law school of your choice. 

  

 Frank

 Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Panel questions

 From: wrgiacona(at)gmail.com

 Date: Mon C 29 Sep 2008 09:31:03 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

 

 

 frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C wrote:

 > Niether experimental nor LSA aircraft have standard airworthiness certificates C so FWIW C 91.205 does not apply.ï¿½ That said C why would you want to fly without those bare minima?

 

 

 

 [Embarassed] I read that paragraph at least three times looking for just that issue and yet never found it. I knew there was a reason I didn't go to law school.

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=206765#206765

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

&============
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home C93182mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now  [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: Panel questions

91.205 only applies to aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates, it does not apply to experimental or SLSA airworthiness certificates unless your operating limitations say differently.

[quote]

 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Panel questions

The key words here are "standard airworthiness certificate". An  

amateur built aircraft does not have a standard airworthiness  

certificate, it has an experimental airworthiness certificate as does  

an ELSA. An SLSA has a special airworthiness certificate. 91.205  

doesn't strictly apply to any of these aircraft. The operating  

limitations will state when and if this rule applies to one of these  

aircraft.

On Sep 29, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote:

> I agree and thats where I m coming from...

> However from what I read, "EXPERIMENTAL" changes everything..

> SW

> ---

 Not everything. (a) spells out the exceptions to 91.205 and  

 experimental isn't one of those. That said, we all know the  

 different FSDO make different rulings about all sorts of issues all  

 the time. There is no reason to think that a DAR or individual FAA  

 inspector couldn't do the same. But let's say you DAR (who isn't  

 even an FAA employee) gives you an AW certificate when your plane  

 doesn't have the equipment required in 91.205. A year or so later  

 you fly some place and get ramp checked. At this point you are well  

 and truly screwed. You will get violated and it will stick because  

 the FAR is really pretty clear.

 Sec. 91.205

 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness  

 certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

 (a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this  

 section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a  

 standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation  

 described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that  

 aircraft contains the

 instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA- 

 approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those  

 instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

 Amdt. 91-296, Eff. 8/6/07

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Panel questions

All-

     Since it's Monday and they're open now,  I sent the question to the EAA tech advisors. I'm killing the thread  with DNA and will post what I get back from EAA.

                                                                     Bill

 [quote]                do    not archive     

[b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Panel questions

I asked EAA as well, here's the answer.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

"An experimental aircraft that is operated day-VFR

only does not have to comply with FAR 91.205.  Only when flying at night or IFR does the experimental aircraft need to meet 91.205.  (This is required by the aircraft's operating limitations, issued as a part of its airworthiness certificate, rather than by the regulation itself.)



Hope this helps!



Joe



Joe Norris

EAA 113615 Lifetime

Homebuilders Community Manager 	
"



So that should answer that.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Panel questions

Got that same answer from Joe when I asked if my GPS would satisfy the 

compass rule.  Joe told me that I really didnt need a compass anyway.  Then 

I mentioned that fact to the local People ( IA FAA DAR).

They said that YES I needed a Magnetic Direction Device.......The GPS was 

NOT a MDD.

So with my tail between my legs I went out and purchased an Airpath ($169) 

and it makes em happy.   Rules or not,  I do what "they" say...

SW

---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: Panel questions

Unfortunately, it doesn't settle the Dynon/whiskey compass question, which 

was the whole point in the first place.

                                                            Bill

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Panel questions

I thought we settled that with  "Yes, the Dynon is a magnetic compass as required by the rules but if you get a DAR that doesn't believe that and you don't want to put up the fight required to overrule him get a compass from Wal-Mart to make them happy" 

 	  naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: 	
		  Unfortunately, it doesn't settle the Dynon/whiskey compass question, which 

was the whole point in the first place.

                                                            Bill

---

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

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