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John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: HHO

Cool!



In the 80's I imagine he didn't need a helicopter, as he was generally 

very "high" for most of that decade from what I remember.



Tom Fisher wrote:

[quote] 

 <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>



 Back in the early 70's I used to fly John Delorean around in 

 helicopters at his plant in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada.

 Tom

 C-GISS



 ---

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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: HHO

Folks,  

A friend of mine is involved in development testing with Mercedes.  

Their new engine lines with direct petrol injection are producing efficiencies that that translate into big sedans with plenty of performance, ie the same power/weight ration as now, but reducing fuel consumption from 12/16 lt:100km, down to 5/8 lt.:100km, ie fuel consumption in already reasonably efficient engines reduced by half.  

It’s all about increasing compression ratios, but chamber/injector design reducing/eliminating pre ignition or detonation.  

These engines will equal or better automotive  diesels.  

Regards,  

Bill Hamilton.  

If you want to do the maths, approx. 4 lt= 1 US Gallon, 1 km approx. Equals 5/8 of a statute mile.   

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of willis robison

 Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 7:44 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: HHO  

From an engineering and Thermodynamics standpoint, the   internal combustion engine (at least the Otto Cycle) is pretty maxed   out.  For regular piston-gasoline pushrod or overhead cam engines the   total efficiency is dictated by the maximum pressure you can obtain.    Lately, higher compression and higher temperatures have pushed the efficiency   to the limits obtainable with current materials (aluminum blocks, nitrided   steel cylinders etc).  computer control of the mixture took it to   another level, but noone will allow a micro controller on an AC without going   through an extensive Qual process.     

Newer High Temperature materials may increase this but   absolute "e" is still = [T(high) - T(low)]/T(low).   

Diesel's are less dependent on T(high) but are still   dependent on the Max pressure.  Thats why they are so good at being   turbocharged at high altitude.  Same goes for Brayton cycle engines (jets).    in that case the limits are [P(high) - P(low)]P(low).    

Now you know why those old---GSO-480's are still   popular.  Lots of juice and still efficient at high altitude if you roll   back on the throttles. (but who would?)   

bud   

   --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	

From: Chris   <cschuerm(at)cox.net>

   Subject: Re: HHO

   To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 12:18 PM    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> Don wrote:> I try and keep and open mind, one day I firmly believe, a > revolutionary change will happen to greatly improve our internal > combustions engine. Well Don, I applaud your positive outlook.  From a purely scientific perspective, there are very few areas to improve a traditional Otto cycle engine.  Even if some new miracle material were to arrive that  	
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       [quote][b]

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dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: HHO

Bill.

  

 Did I do the math right, that is almost 100  mpg?

  

 Don

 [quote]   ---

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dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: HHO

Bill

  

  Did you mean 5/8 liter or was it 5 to 8  liters per 100 km?

  

 I think that was my error.

  

 Don

  

 [quote]   ---

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steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: HHO

Hey, I'm supposed to be the environmental wacko on this list. I'm gone for a 

couple days and look what happens. You guys start splitting molecules and 

running engines on water. Quit moving in on my territory. I've got a 

reputation to think about.



Anybody remember the magnetic gizmos they used to sell to strap to fuel 

lines that 'aligned the ions' or some some such thing......



I'm still pretty amazed at how efficient ancient aircraft engines are at 

doing the job they were designed for. Especially at lean of peak.  I can't 

find the reference anymore, but there was a good (now dated) piece kicking 

around discussing how a lot of the modern advances in automobile powerplants 

didn't translate as well to slow turning aircraft engines. Multi-valve 

technology, the frictional losses of geared drivetrains, and frictional 

losses of double and higher RPM's.



Better and more efficient fuel delivery seems to be an area that could still 

use improvement, and better management of when you really need the extra 

rich mixture.



Got to go out and stack some more firewood.



Steve



---

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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: HHO

However, anyway you look at it, the price per gallon of water these days is

less than the price of gas... SOOOOO splitting them may cost less than the

norm. 





David Owens

Aerial Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: HHO

Don,   

Sorry for any confusion, 5 to 8 litres per 100 km ---- In an almost 3 ton car. By 5 to 8 lt/100 km, I am referring to standard city cycle ( and country cycle (5) tests. Small European cars that do 80 mpg ( Imperial) are common, but the latest developments are really something, with petrol catching up with diesel.  

Mind you, they (Benz) have been working on direct injection since the 1930’s, maybe earlier, remember the Me 109.  

Regards,  

Bill Hamilton  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don

 Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 2:19 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: HHO  

Bill.  

Did I do the math right, that is almost 100 mpg?  

Don  

   	  Quote: 	

----- Original Message -----   

From: Bill Hamilton (wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au)   

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)   

Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:24 PM  

Subject: RE: Commander-List: HHO  

Folks,  

A friend of mine is involved in development testing with Mercedes.  

Their new engine lines with direct petrol injection are producing efficiencies that that translate into big sedans with plenty of performance, ie the same power/weight ration as now, but reducing fuel consumption from 12/16 lt:100km, down to 5/8 lt.:100km, ie fuel consumption in already reasonably efficient engines reduced by half.  

It’s all about increasing compression ratios, but chamber/injector design reducing/eliminating pre ignition or detonation.  

These engines will equal or better automotive  diesels.  

Regards,  

Bill Hamilton.  

If you want to do the maths, approx. 4 lt= 1 US Gallon, 1 km approx. Equals 5/8 of a statute mile.   

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of willis robison

 Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 7:44 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: HHO  

From an engineering and Thermodynamics standpoint, the   internal combustion engine (at least the Otto Cycle) is pretty maxed   out.  For regular piston-gasoline pushrod or overhead cam engines the   total efficiency is dictated by the maximum pressure you can obtain.    Lately, higher compression and higher temperatures have pushed the efficiency   to the limits obtainable with current materials (aluminum blocks, nitrided   steel cylinders etc).  computer control of the mixture took it to another   level, but noone will allow a micro controller on an AC without going through   an extensive Qual process.     

Newer High Temperature materials may increase this but   absolute "e" is still = [T(high) - T(low)]/T(low).   

Diesel's are less dependent on T(high) but are still   dependent on the Max pressure.  Thats why they are so good at being   turbocharged at high altitude.  Same goes for Brayton cycle engines   (jets).  in that case the limits are [P(high) - P(low)]P(low).    

Now you know why those old---GSO-480's are still   popular.  Lots of juice and still efficient at high altitude if you roll   back on the throttles. (but who would?)   

bud   

   --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	

From: Chris   <cschuerm(at)cox.net>

   Subject: Re: HHO

   To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 12:18 PM    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> Don wrote:> I try and keep and open mind, one day I firmly believe, a > revolutionary change will happen to greatly improve our internal > combustions engine. Well Don, I applaud your positive outlook.  From a purely scientific perspective, there are very few areas to improve a traditional Otto cycle engine.  Even if some new miracle material were to arrive that  	
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steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: HHO

Pretty sure GM is deep into direct injection now  also, even for North America.

  

 I'll have to look that up.

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

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