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Kayberg(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:40 am Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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I changed to multigrade oil too soon on a 2200 and had to go back to straight oil for 50 hours to get more power and lower oil consumption.
Maybe the factory knows best?
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 6/9/2009 11:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
Quote: | Agreed Keith,
Most shops are still recommending a "break in" oil, but many top shops have switched over to recommending using multigrade. I was an early adopter and have been very happy.
I did follow the recommendation to fly it hard right away. Seventy-five percent or higher with particular effort to keep cylinder pressures high..
I spent many hours as a young aviator slow timing engines. I now believe that was a major waste of time and I do not think the engines ever ran as good as do those that we break in hard and early. The slow time and heavy oils may have been needed fifty to sixty years ago when fits and finish were not as good as they are today.
My last two certificated engines I even broke in using lean of peak mixtures. That is a bit trickier because you have to be sure the mixture distribution to every cylinder is extremely accurate and well balanced, but it does work if all the bases are covered.
Unfortunately, I know of no way to do that with a Jabiru. I broke in a 3300 last year, but just used the mixture as it came from the factory. We did run it hard though and used multi grade oil. In an effort to get it ready for Sun and Fun, I flew the thing 24 hours in three days! Our son and his daughter flew off the rest of the time in a couple of days before taking it to the show.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 10:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
Quote: | Hi Bob
That's interesting - as you say - is it an old wives tail - I believe Jabiru and Lycoming still recommend straight oil initially. I believed the reason was that the friction reducing additives would glaze the bores before the rings were bedded in. I'm certainly no expert on oils, but have had a good result with aviation multi grade with our variations of temperature here. And of course we could start another discussion on the best way to break in a new engine ???
Regards
Keith
--- On Wed, 10/6/09, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:
Quote: |
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:29 PM
Good Evening Keith,
Just out of curiosity, why do you want to use a different oil for break in than you do for normal use?
Following the recommendation of a local Boutique engine shop owner, I have broken in my last three engines using multigrade aviation oil. Seemed to work just fine. They all ran good, broke in fast and seem to be doing just fine. The rings were fully seated in way less than five hours. The first one I broke in that way was retired after running eighteen hundred hours without a cylinder being pulled or any major component needing service. I think the old mineral oil idea is just an ancient Old Wive's Tale!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
Quote: | Hi Chris
Only other thought at this stage is don't hurry to change from the straight (running in) oil if the oil burn has not settled - we have one motor done 42 hours and haven't changed to the multi grade yet.
Regards
Keith
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:10 am Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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It sounds like this is a training airplane, perhaps? And it sounds
like you are in the maintenance end of things? That sounds like the
best way to get a lot of experience with Jabiru's, and keep on top of
what is going on with them.
When my rocker bushings went bad...273 hours....I replaced all of
them with plain bushings, no teflon coating, and this took care of
the changing valve lash problem. Now when I do a valve lash check, I
find only a rare valve that is off by one-thousandth or so.
Then when my crankshaft timing gear broke (engine stopped, landed in
a wheat field) I overhauled the whole engine, including new valves
and guides, rings, bearings, and a new crank. I've got about 110
hours on the rebuild.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Keith Pickford wrote:
Quote: | Hi Lynn
Yes checked them all - the two I replaced were both on number one
cyl. Will be doing a top overhaul before too long. Went with the
oil thermostat as we have many people of different experience
levels flying the aircraft and I wanted to keep it simple.
Also about to strip a earley hydraulic lifter engine (ser # 2440)
that needs line boring after 500 hours.
Regards
Keith
--- On Wed, 10/6/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps..net> wrote:
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 12:37 PM
<lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Hi Keith-
Did you look at all the rocker bushings when you did the two? I'm
surprised only two needed replacing.
I decided against the oil thermostat because of the extra fittings
involved, and instead installed a butterfly-type valve to regulate
the air to the oil cooler. It works very well until I forget
sometimes to open it and that's when I wished I had the 'stat. : )
I can actually leave it closed all winter long (flying on skis),
and this gets me into the habit of sometimes forgetting it, but the
warning light gets my attention.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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I ran my (self) rebuilt engine for 50 hours on Aeroshell mineral oil
as per the Jabiru manual (the oil, not the hours), but was curious as
to why mineral oil, and a local aircraft engine rebuilder, as well as
other local fliers. told me that the rings seat better with no
additives. At least as far as I can tell, my engine is producing more
power now than it did before. Of course, the old rings had more than
double the end gap as the replacement rings, and this would probably
account for a lot of that.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:32 AM, Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: | I changed to multigrade oil too soon on a 2200 and had to go back
to straight oil for 50 hours to get more power and lower oil
consumption.
Maybe the factory knows best?
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 6/9/2009 11:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
Agreed Keith,
Most shops are still recommending a "break in" oil, but many top
shops have switched over to recommending using multigrade. I was an
early adopter and have been very happy.
I did follow the recommendation to fly it hard right away. Seventy-
five percent or higher with particular effort to keep cylinder
pressures high..
I spent many hours as a young aviator slow timing engines. I now
believe that was a major waste of time and I do not think the
engines ever ran as good as do those that we break in hard and
early. The slow time and heavy oils may have been needed fifty to
sixty years ago when fits and finish were not as good as they are
today.
My last two certificated engines I even broke in using lean of peak
mixtures. That is a bit trickier because you have to be sure the
mixture distribution to every cylinder is extremely accurate and
well balanced, but it does work if all the bases are covered.
Unfortunately, I know of no way to do that with a Jabiru. I broke
in a 3300 last year, but just used the mixture as it came from the
factory. We did run it hard though and used multi grade oil. In an
effort to get it ready for Sun and Fun, I flew the thing 24 hours
in three days! Our son and his daughter flew off the rest of the
time in a couple of days before taking it to the show.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 10:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
Hi Bob
That's interesting - as you say - is it an old wives tail - I
believe Jabiru and Lycoming still recommend straight oil initially.
I believed the reason was that the friction reducing additives
would glaze the bores before the rings were bedded in. I'm
certainly no expert on oils, but have had a good result with
aviation multi grade with our variations of temperature here. And
of course we could start another discussion on the best way to
break in a new engine ???
Regards
Keith
--- On Wed, 10/6/09, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:29 PM
Good Evening Keith,
Just out of curiosity, why do you want to use a different oil for
break in than you do for normal use?
Following the recommendation of a local Boutique engine shop owner,
I have broken in my last three engines using multigrade aviation
oil. Seemed to work just fine. They all ran good, broke in fast and
seem to be doing just fine. The rings were fully seated in way less
than five hours. The first one I broke in that way was retired
after running eighteen hundred hours without a cylinder being
pulled or any major component needing service. I think the old
mineral oil idea is just an ancient Old Wive's Tale!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
Hi Chris
Only other thought at this stage is don't hurry to change from the
straight (running in) oil if the oil burn has not settled - we have
one motor done 42 hours and haven't changed to the multi grade yet.
Regards
Keith
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.ol?redir=http://
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26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps!
ist" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
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==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://
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contribution ====================================
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
==================================== List href="http://
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==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:32 am Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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Good Morning Lynn,
Just goes to show that anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a lot.
I have had much better luck with the engines I broke in using the same oil I intended to operate them on, but I also now break in engines at a lot higher cylinder pressures than I did in earlier days.
Times change and I am sure my ideas will change when other evidence presents itself.
I think your ring gap is most likely the primary cause of any increase in power!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/10/2009 7:18:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time, lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:
Quote: | --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
I ran my (self) rebuilt engine for 50 hours on Aeroshell mineral oil
as per the Jabiru manual (the oil, not the hours), but was curious as
to why mineral oil, and a local aircraft engine rebuilder, as well as
other local fliers. told me that the rings seat better with no
additives. At least as far as I can tell, my engine is producing more
power now than it did before. Of course, the old rings had more than
double the end gap as the replacement rings, and this would probably
account for a lot of that.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:32 AM, Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: | I changed to multigrade oil too soon on a 2200 and had to go back
to straight oil for 50 hours to get more power and lower oil
consumption.
Maybe the factory knows best?
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 6/9/2009 11:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
Agreed Keith,
Most shops are still recommending a "break in" oil, but many top
shops have switched over to recommending using multigrade. I was an
early adopter and have been very happy.
I did follow the recommendation to fly it hard right away. Seventy-
five percent or higher with particular effort to keep cylinder
pressures high..
I spent many hours as a young aviator slow timing engines. I now
believe that was a major waste of time and I do not think the
engines ever ran as good as do those that we break in hard and
early. The slow time and heavy oils may have been needed fifty to
sixty years ago when fits and finish were not as good as they are
today.
My last two certificated engines I even broke in using lean of peak
mixtures. That is a bit trickier because you have to be sure the
mixture distribution to every cylinder is extremely accurate and
well balanced, but it does work if all the bases are covered.
Unfortunately, I know of no way to do that with a Jabiru. I broke
in a 3300 last year, but just used the mixture as it came from the
factory. We did run it hard though and used multi grade oil. In an
effort to get it ready for Sun and Fun, I flew the thing 24 hours
in three days! Our son and his daughter flew off the rest of the
time in a couple of days before taking it to the show.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 10:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
Hi Bob
That's interesting - as you say - is it an old wives tail - I
believe Jabiru and Lycoming still recommend straight oil initially.
I believed the reason was that the friction reducing additives
would glaze the bores before the rings were bedded in. I'm
certainly no expert on oils, but have had a good result with
aviation multi grade with our variations of temperature here. And
of course we could start another discussion on the best way to
break in a new engine ???
Regards
Keith
--- On Wed, 10/6/09, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:29 PM
Good Evening Keith,
Just out of curiosity, why do you want to use a different oil for
break in than you do for normal use?
Following the recommendation of a local Boutique engine shop owner,
I have broken in my last three engines using multigrade aviation
oil. Seemed to work just fine. They all ran good, broke in fast and
seem to be doing just fine. The rings were fully seated in way less
than five hours. The first one I broke in that way was retired
after running eighteen hundred hours without a cylinder being
pulled or any major component needing service. I think the old
mineral oil idea is just an ancient Old Wive's Tale!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
Hi Chris
Only other thought at this stage is don't hurry to change from the
straight (running in) oil if the oil burn has not settled - we have
one motor done 42 hours and haven't changed to the multi grade yet.
Regards
Keith
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.ol?redir=http://
www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%
26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps!
ist" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
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==================================== List href="http://
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==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://
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contribution ====================================
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
==================================== List href="http://
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==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://
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ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Posts: 317 Location: houghton lake ,mi
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: A-2200 oil leak |
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What kind of temps are you guys running cht/egt ?
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imap8ntr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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As you know CHT's largely depend on the fuselage, cowling and aircraft which
all regulate airflow over the cylinders. EGT's depend on mixture.
It looks like you have a challenger?
Anyway at 8500ft, cruise power , 3300A engine, I get a range of 250-290 CHT
and EGT's of 1340-1392. Thus I have no great spread from front to back and
right to left.
Ivan
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ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Posts: 317 Location: houghton lake ,mi
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: A-2200 oil leak |
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My 2200 today...a 70* day at 2500ft had an oil temp of 198-212 and a cht of 230 and egt of 1240-1290 at 2800 rpm.
On another note what about the vent hole I have read about to be drilled in the rear valve covers ?? Is this necessary? the engine is on a Kolb Mark 3 Xtra.
chris ambrose
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zeprep251(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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Chris,
Cyls hd 290, egt1400
G.Aman
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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Hi Bob-
Yes, the ring gap being closed up, and perhaps the addition of the
Electroair direct fire ignition system, but I'm betting on the ring gap.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:31 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: | Good Morning Lynn,
Just goes to show that anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a lot.
I have had much better luck with the engines I broke in using the
same oil I intended to operate them on, but I also now break in
engines at a lot higher cylinder pressures than I did in earlier days.
Times change and I am sure my ideas will change when other evidence
presents itself.
I think your ring gap is most likely the primary cause of any
increase in power!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/10/2009 7:18:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:
<lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
I ran my (self) rebuilt engine for 50 hours on Aeroshell mineral oil
as per the Jabiru manual (the oil, not the hours), but was curious as
to why mineral oil, and a local aircraft engine rebuilder, as well as
other local fliers. told me that the rings seat better with no
additives. At least as far as I can tell, my engine is producing more
power now than it did before. Of course, the old rings had more than
double the end gap as the replacement rings, and this would probably
account for a lot of that.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:32 AM, Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:
> I changed to multigrade oil too soon on a 2200 and had to go back
> to straight oil for 50 hours to get more power and lower oil
> consumption.
>
> Maybe the factory knows best?
>
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 11:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
> Agreed Keith,
>
> Most shops are still recommending a "break in" oil, but many top
> shops have switched over to recommending using multigrade. I was an
> early adopter and have been very happy.
>
> I did follow the recommendation to fly it hard right away. Seventy-
> five percent or higher with particular effort to keep cylinder
> pressures high..
>
> I spent many hours as a young aviator slow timing engines. I now
> believe that was a major waste of time and I do not think the
> engines ever ran as good as do those that we break in hard and
> early. The slow time and heavy oils may have been needed fifty to
> sixty years ago when fits and finish were not as good as they are
> today.
>
> My last two certificated engines I even broke in using lean of peak
> mixtures. That is a bit trickier because you have to be sure the
> mixture distribution to every cylinder is extremely accurate and
> well balanced, but it does work if all the bases are covered.
>
> Unfortunately, I know of no way to do that with a Jabiru. I broke
> in a 3300 last year, but just used the mixture as it came from the
> factory. We did run it hard though and used multi grade oil. In an
> effort to get it ready for Sun and Fun, I flew the thing 24 hours
> in three days! Our son and his daughter flew off the rest of the
> time in a couple of days before taking it to the show.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 10:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
> Hi Bob
>
> That's interesting - as you say - is it an old wives tail - I
> believe Jabiru and Lycoming still recommend straight oil initially.
> I believed the reason was that the friction reducing additives
> would glaze the bores before the rings were bedded in. I'm
> certainly no expert on oils, but have had a good result with
> aviation multi grade with our variations of temperature here. And
> of course we could start another discussion on the best way to
> break in a new engine ???
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
> --- On Wed, 10/6/09, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:
>
> From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak
> To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
> Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:29 PM
>
> Good Evening Keith,
>
> Just out of curiosity, why do you want to use a different oil for
> break in than you do for normal use?
>
> Following the recommendation of a local Boutique engine shop owner,
> I have broken in my last three engines using multigrade aviation
> oil. Seemed to work just fine. They all ran good, broke in fast and
> seem to be doing just fine. The rings were fully seated in way less
> than five hours. The first one I broke in that way was retired
> after running eighteen hundred hours without a cylinder being
> pulled or any major component needing service. I think the old
> mineral oil idea is just an ancient Old Wive's Tale!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz writes:
> Hi Chris
>
> Only other thought at this stage is don't hurry to change from the
> straight (running in) oil if the oil burn has not settled - we have
> one motor done 42 hours and haven't changed to the multi grade yet.
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: A-2200 oil leak |
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My CHT's are comparably high, because I've attached my probes
directly to the head instead of being up in the airstream. Take a
look at where the reading area of your spark plug probes is, and
you'll find that you are not reading CHT, but rather the air
temperature NEAR the head. In my humble opinion, Jabiru should have
done this on all their engines, and we wouldn't have the problem of
putzing around with the spark plug washers every time we change
plugs, and get a more accurate reading of the actual temp of the
head. My heads run around 340 degrees F. EGT's vary from mid-1200's
to 1420 for the highest.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:31 PM, ces308 wrote:
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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
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