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Raptors Rule
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

Hitman,

 It's coming to a carrier near you to! Gives a whole new meaning to the Ramp Monster! No one is safe from this UCAV thing where killing is just a video game with real consequences. The X generation is primed for this mission! They will never know the joy of a 3 deminsional barrel roll at Mach! They will only see it on a video screen!

 Doc

 �

 



 �

 [quote] ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

Brian, 

I am not trying to be a smart ass on this one. Really, though there things

in this story line that just can't be talked about in a world wide forum

like this list.

Like I said, as things will be known in time. 

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 4/17/2006 8:08:31 AM

 Subject: Re: Raptors Rule



 



 Roger Kemp wrote:

 > Brian,

 > All things will be known in time.

 > Drop this line/topic.



 Yes sir!



 -- 

 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

 brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:28 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

While none of what has been discussed is classified, and all has been

discussed in Aviation Week I can see that we should move off the topic. 



It makes for interesting discussion for those folks in data networking

who have an aviation passion.  Funny thing is, there are standards

issues that can't be broken (speed of light, latency due to distance)

and the theoretical ways to account for this in real life applications

is challenging and interesting to those in the field.



Dabear



Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Brian, 

I am not trying to be a smart ass on this one. Really, though there things

in this story line that just can't be talked about in a world wide forum

like this list.

Like I said, as things will be known in time. 

Doc

  



>[Original Message]

>From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>

>To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

>Date: 4/17/2006 8:08:31 AM

>Subject: Re: Raptors Rule

>

>

>

>Roger Kemp wrote:

>    

>

>>Brian,

>>All things will be known in time.

>>Drop this line/topic.

>>      

>>

>Yes sir!

>

>-- 

>Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

>brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

>+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

>

>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

>- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

>    

>

gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

No need for the web, just pick up a techno-thriller. Dale Brown's

megafortress series is a good example. He's got tactical UAV's launched

and controlled from an aircraft and capable of autonomous, coordinated

ACM. About the only thing technically out of reach (right now) is the

thought control interface. His book Storming Heaven is a chillingly

familiar description of an attack on our National Airspace System...

Copyrighted 5 years before 9/11. That's just one guy. 



At Boeing in 1975 we could do aerodynamic FEA on about 1 inch grids. Now

they can track molecules and I can do smaller grids on my desktop. We

have reached the point where almost anything technical we can conceive

is possible, limited only by our desire and money. 



Greg



[quote] --

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Brain -

  �

  I think the point is, is just that...that there isn't a need for ACM anymore.� Being on the AWACS now for many years, and trained for 2v2s, 2v4s, packages, etc.� and never actually employing that knowledge....it's a dying art.� There just isn't an adversary that is capable of going air to air with the US or Brits.� We rule the sky!

  �

  I was in Afghanistan and then my crew went off to Iraq and our main mission was passing TST (Time Sensitive Targeting) to the BONEs and Dark Greys�and then relaying to the Hawgs the TOO (Targets of Opportunity) from the Army FACs on the ground.� Our vision of an air-to-air war, while super fun to practice, is just not the reality of today.� Those days have passed, at least for now.

  �

  You are 100% correct that no UAV will EVER be able to do ACM, nor are they designed for it.� They are RECCE mostly, then  soon, COMM relay, then a few (like the Global Hawks that are no kidding controlled from Cali can employ the Hell Fire missile).� We, as the DOD are not sanctioned to do that.� You will all remember the bombing of the Paki camp that was from a Predator with a Hell Fire missile???� Well that was CIA....they are the only ones authorized to carry and employ that missile from any UAV platform at this time.� I suppose that is a political move on our part, but it's reality.

  �

  So, let the record show...I actually agreed with Brain!� 

  �

  That was a joke, please take it that way� 

  �

  Smash



Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> wrote



Sure you are going to be able to fly a preprogrammed mission that way. 

You aren't going to fly ACM that way. When someone tries to do 

air-to-air with a UCAV, you can bet your ass they are going to have  to 

solve the latency problem.



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aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Double S -

  �

  You are spot on my brother....CAS...Hawgs...that is the way it's going.� After I vectored in those Hawgs and handed them off to the ground FACs, I just sat back and listened, 10 meters to the South...shack, now 10 meters North...shack.� It was an awesome thing to witness (audio only of course).� But the Marines that were getting schwacked every night from insurgents were sure glad to see those cluster bombs falling from the sky!� That night, I was creditted with assisting in the kills of 28 Afghanis.�� Not sure what I did to get that credit other that direct the Hawg on target and pass him off to the boys that were protecting their B hinds, but hey...that night, we saved a shit load of Marines and that is what I care about!� God bless the Corps!� 

  �

  JDAMs...woooheee!� You talk about an amazing weapon....in Red Flag scenarios, we always have guys on the  ground that are scoring the bombing runs.� They have made a sweeping decision it's not worth their time to score JDAMs, they are spot on 99% of the time and the boys in the back of the BONEs sure know how to corral the target and destroy it.

  �

  Hate to beat the perverbial dead horse, but this goes back to the difference in war fighting of today....not only are the Apaches supporting the bubbas on the ground, but now, the AF is taking up that role.� No longer are we the air superiority Gods that we self proclaim to be, we are now, instead, here to sweep the air space and provide cover for the boys that are fighting the *real* war on the ground!� 

  �

  thanks to all those that dare to brave the ground!

  �

  Smash



Stan Siry <sasiry(at)gmail.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		     The F-22 is a great air superiority fighter, but who is it going to fight?

  UAV's are good for recon, eyes on target, and Predator strikes.

  But from a Marines perspective, where does close air support enter the planning.

  JDAM's are great, but a grunt needs it up close and personal.

  Remember close air support doesn't mean dropping ordnance from 8,000 feet and above.

  You can't call it CAS at those altitudes.

  Thanks God for Harriers, F-18's, A-10's, Cobras, and�Apaches.



�

	


 		Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1�/min.

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

One would think that this is such a stupid/anti flying job that no one would want to do it, but...Hitman hit the nail on the cranium....there are more of us than you think that�seriously want a piece of this action.

  �

  I applied the last 3 years...why?

  �

  1.� I get to deploy again and get back in the action

  2.� Any possible chance to drop one of those Hell Fire missiles, even in test would be a sweet prospect.

  �

  Smash



"A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]    v\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  o\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  w\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  .shape {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }              Just think about how the Air Force recruiting effort is going to go!� "Go Air Force where you fly and  fight right from a leather recliner and go home to your family every night!"

  Dennis

  �

  [quote]  ---

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Sarah Tobin [aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.com]wrote:��    

 	  Quote: 	
		  The new Suk will only be a threat to the US and Brits if  

US and/or Brit pilots are flying them.� Russia does not  

have the resourses to fly and train the way we do and are  

therefore not effective with their technology.�    

And I am sure that every American and British pilot past and present would 
	


agree with your assessment, with the possible exception of those that  

actually DID go 1 V 1 with Russians in Korea and were subsequently shot down.    

Hmmm.... a few in Vietnam also came to that same conclusion.�    

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ask Jj or Hitman how much they would like to get their hands  

on a little Mig 29/look down shoot down capability!�  

Sweet stuff in the hands of competent fliers, not so much in under  

trained ones.   

Ask Hitman or Jj when was the last time they went 1 V 1 with a Russian  
	


fighter pilot flying his countries best PRODUCTION aircraft again the best  

PRODUCTION American aircraft. The only thing that even comes close is the  

"STAGED" event in Germany.�    

My point is simply this: Talk is fun, but talk is cheap.� To think that a  

country that can build an airplane like the one mentioned can, but can not  

produce a pilot good enough to use it effectively is not logical, 

nor is it backed up by history, or my personal experience with Russian  

pilots.��    

Smash... question for ya.... who was the all time highest ranking Allied Ace  

of World War II ???� Hint... he wasn't an American.� Hint Hint .... he also wasn't  

British.���    

You said:"Russia does not have the resources to fly and train  

the way WE do and are therefore not effective with their technology"    

Sorry. I disagree. BUT.... Next to impossible to prove, unless maybe you'd  

agree to go 1 v 1 with Sergei in a YAK-52, or a 50, or a Sukhoi, or any other  

available Russian aircraft of your choice.� I know for a fact he'd agree to  

give it a go .... and he's in his 50's.�    

My loyalty is to the United States of America, but that does not diminish my  

admiration and respect for the products or capabilities of another country, nor  

does it make me believe that anything American is naturally better than everything  

else. Your statement that infers the lack of capability in Russian pilots is simply 

incorrect.���    

Mark Bitterlich  

N50YK  

 

  

�

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Stan Siry said: 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Remember close air support doesn't mean dropping ordnance from 8,000 feet and above. 

You can't call it CAS at those altitudes. 

Thanks God for Harriers, F-18's, A-10's, Cobras, and Apaches.   

When you can paint it with a laser, it really doesn't matter how high the weapon was dropped from Stan.�    
	


Close Air Support should not refer to how close the airplanes got to the grunt, but to how close the munitions got to the enemy, with the grunts in very close proximity!�   

Question: What aircraft dropped the most guided munitions during Desert Storm per capita?� I wish I could place odds on this one!�    

Mark  

N50YK

a35plt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Highest scoring ace on the Allied side was Ivan

Kozhedub of the Soviet VVS.

Again I encourage anybody who is interested in Red

star aircraft to read the book FULCRUM by Alex Zuyev,

a Mig-29 Pilot who defected to Turkey. Many of our

mistaken assumptions of the Former Soviet/ Russian air

force (VVS) can be traced to their sister service, the

PVO, or continental air defense. The VVS is very

capable. BTW the much vaunted Col. Tomb in SE Asia was

a myth, and was more likely to have been a Soviet

Pilot(s). 

 Exercise COPE INDIA pitting USAF F-15's vs. IAF

Su-27's and Migs resulted in the U.S. being on the

losing side. And Doc, your vipers would have fared

even worse. 

When you ASSUME the bad guy is incompetent....   

                 - Robert Starnes

  



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BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

When a person who works for the United States Government is issued their very first Security Clearance, the first thing he or she is taught is to neither confirm nor deny anything that is either read or published "in public" even if it happens to be perfectly correct.� What instead is taught is that the properly trained person simply ignores this information and only talks about it in the proper forum, in the proper spaces, and at the proper time. Each time a persons security clearance is raised to a higher level, this simple fact is required to be relearned, and in some cases the person in question has to sign documents stating he or she clearly understands this requirement.� I say again... THIS REQUIREMENT.�   

Those people who are citizens of the United States of America who are not currently in the employ of Government and do not hold a clearance and who were never exposed to sensitive or critical information that could impact the National Security of the United States need not fear any topic of conversation, and in fact are encouraged to speak of any subject they wish to, under what is commonly referred to as The Bill of Rights, namely the First Amendment.� This being one of the freedoms that members of our United States military are sworn to defend with their very lives.�   

Should a person who falls into the definition contained in paragraph one, find him or herself in a conversation with anyone� described in paragraph number two, the issue of neither confirming nor denying certain subject matter still holds true.� If the conversation strays into areas that people in paragraph one feel sensitive, they are required to simply SHUT UP and say NOTHING FURTHER.� If anyone described in paragraph number one feels anyone ELSE described in paragraph number one is saying things that they should not be saying, then they are again required BY LAW to contact their local security officer AND NOT TALK ABOUT IT PUBLICLY.   

Given the fact that this list discusses all manner of topics, very few relating to what does and what does not contribute towards making a YAK or CJ-6 fly, the present discussion simply has no more, or no less "right" to be posted or be talked about than my particular passion concerning Flight Suits, or Pappy's for flying bombers, or Smash's for military flight training.�   

I have tried to be tactful with this post, but I find it impossible to not reply to the comment by Roger Kemp: "All things will be known in time."�� Mr. Kemp, what will or will not be known in time now or in the future WILL not be determined by you, and speaking for Mr. Lloyd, neither him nor I need your reminder of same.�   

Mark Bitterlich  

N50YK  

 

 

 

 

  

�   

 

  

�  

  

--

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Raptors Rule

 	  a35plt(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		   Exercise COPE INDIA pitting USAF F-15's vs. IAF

Su-27's and Migs resulted in the U.S. being on the

losing side. And Doc, your vipers would have fared

even worse. 

When you ASSUME the bad guy is incompetent....   

                 - Robert Starnes

  



__________________________________________________

	




You need to read more about that exercise. The USAF had their hands tied and were limited by the ROE. The Indian AF did a nice job but it is not as it was reported in most media sources.

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

The same exact thing can be said about our 1 V 1 encounters with the former East German pilots.�    

It was an interesting situation.� The East German pilots were told: "Our Intell says that you will respond to our aircraft in this very exact fashion".� The East German Pilots said: "But hey, we were never told to do that, and in fact we would be CRAZY to do that!"... the response was: "Maybe so, but our Intell says that you would have done it this way, so please... limit your engagements to our exact limitations".� The East Germans replied: "But we'll lose every time with stupid rules like that"  

They were ordered to do it anyway.� Every once in awhile, one of them "cheated" and ends up winning a fight or two. You know how bad "ego" can be with pilots.�   

This event was shown on Wings... and every detail documented.� I was not there.�    

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK 

�    

--

a35plt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

I Read about it in Aerospace week magazine, which I

read religiously as do most folks WORLDWIDE who make

their living in the aviation industry. AW&ST magazine

had numerous articles about this and USN exercises

with the Israeli's (Same Results). Closure for Visual

I.D. is a standard ROE to prevent Blue on Blue

engagements and was the scenario.

The Post was about Raptors , and my point is that we

need MORE of them to maintain air superiority in teh

face of future threats. I live in Atlanta, Ga. where

they build the F-22 and feel strongly about the

subject. There is too much chest beating about how we

are so great, can whip the other guy with our pinky,

etc. when the truth is our Tactical Air fleet is

gettin' pretty long in the tooth.

                    -Robert Starnes 

 	  Quote: 	
		  > 

 You need to read more about that exercise. The USAF

 had their hands tied and were limited by the ROE.

 The Indian AF did a nice job but it is not as it was

 reported in most media sources.

 

 

 

 

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BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Tell me about it.� Having an F-14 with Phoenix missiles that can take out guys a LONG ways out of visual range, and never being given the authority to fire it does little good in combat.� Your comments about visual I.D. being a requirement are well known, and are confirmed by our Government publicly.�   

As to all the chest beating, you can't find better examples than to read the comments on this list by some of the Air Force types.� Some of them are just wrong.� Some are just grossly immature.� I was surprised to see Smash say what she did about the Russians.� Sergei would toast her cookies in any 1 v 1 she ever got the balls to fly in.� I have flown with our fighter pilots... and I have flown with him.� He'd eat them alive.�   

I've have met other Russian pilots.� I have seen them fly.� They are fearless, aggressive, loyal, and I respect the SHIT out of them, and would be seriously concerned about going head to head with them in anything other than the F-22.� Their new Sukhoi beats the F-16 as the F-16 does an F-4 Phantom.�   

My comments are based on my personal observations and personal interactions with Russians met in the Aerobatic and YAK world.� Not on any material I have come across in my job.� It it was, it would not be talked about here ... at ALL.�   

Notice, I do not talk about Electronic Warfare.    

Mark  

  

--

a35plt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

I guess another point that I would like to make is

that when you're over the other guy's turf as part of

an Expeditionary air force (which is what U.S. Forces

are) and they are playing point air defense over their

Mig Bases, etc. You may have the best, most capable

weapons system going but when it's 100 migs vs. 2

eagles/raptors/superbugz/vipers etc. YOU ARE GOING TO

LOSE. And then they're gonna drive in and bugger the

AWACS. And then things are really going to get

exciting. The Russians, when asked about the

performance (or lack thereof) of the Mig-29 in Gulf

war one described the Iraqi pilots as being pigs with

Rolexes, they had something nice and shiny but had no

clue how to use it.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you gotta love the

Luftwaffe. One of their Tornado pilots told me once

that he thought chocking aircraft was a safety hazard,

because he had to go to afterburner to get over 'em.

I'm still wondering whether or not he was joking but

there is no doubt that I'd fly with those guys

anytime.    

    -Robert S



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aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

#! there is no one that has this capability

  #2 we would send just two

  �

  Smash



Robert Starnes <a35plt(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  �You may have the best, most capable

weapons system going but when it's 100 migs vs. 2

eagles/raptors/superbugz/vipers etc. YOU ARE GOING TO

LOSE. And then they're gonna drive in and bugger the

AWACS. 	


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HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Raptors Rule

I have tremendous respect for the abilities of many nations air forces. I do not think we have cornered the market on skilled air crews. I do think we have a better overall package that is needed for a full up air battle. 



Get the fight down to just the pointy noses, then all bets are off. 



By the way, there is a local guy here who was a Ukranian MiG-21 driver and him and I have talked in length about how they did things compared to how the US operates. We broke it down to tactics, support and airframes. It would have been nice to have some fighter types around but it was still a very interesting talk. 



Anyway, if you dont respect the guy on your scope or on your six, things are going to go badly for you.

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