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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
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 Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:50 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
 |
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The original poster said he was in SoCal, if I remember correctly. I don't remember that he specified and airport, though. Hard to find much in the way of un-controlled airspace around here with all the mode C veils.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
Jon Finley wrote: [quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Bakerocb,
Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments. No doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment (controlled airspace).
If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c), does not apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled.
So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is true.
If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing.
Jon
[quote] --
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
|
1/20/2010
Hello Steve Thomas, You write: "I am the manufacturer of the airplane."
{Response} Nice try, but no cigar.
In the eyes of the FAA you are not the manufacturer of a type certificated
airplane (which title carrys many significant qualifications, approvals, and
inspections), but instead the "fabicator and assembler" of an experimental
amateur built airplane.
The regulatory permission and description that allows our category of
aircraft to exist does not use the word "manufactured". See here:
" 14 CFR 21.191 Experimental certificates. Experimental certificates are
issued for the following purposes:
(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major
portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook
the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
==========================================================
Time: 06:49:15 AM PST US
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification
From: Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net>
OC,
As I read the regs. you quote below, it sounds like I am qualified to
perform the
tests.
| Quote: | "(b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted
by-
(1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests
and inspections
are to be performed;
|
I am the manufacturer of the airplane.
Steve Thomas
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sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
|
OC, I'm pretty sure my experimental airworthiness certificate has a blank on it for "manufacturer." I've seen some builders put their last name there, while others put "Vans" or whatever. I'm not looking at my cert right now (it's in the plane), but I'm reasonably sure the box I'm referring to is not labeled "Fabricator."
-Bill B
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
1/20/2010
Hello Steve Thomas, You write: "I am the manufacturer of the airplane."
{Response} Nice try, but no cigar.
In the eyes of the FAA you are not the manufacturer of a type certificated airplane (which title carrys many significant qualifications, approvals, and inspections), but instead the "fabicator and assembler" of an experimental amateur built airplane.
The regulatory permission and description that allows our category of aircraft to exist does not use the word "manufactured". See here:
" 14 CFR 21.191 Experimental certificates. Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:
(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge."
========
Time: 06:49:15 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Encoder Certification
From: Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net (lists(at)stevet.net)>
OC,
As I read the regs. you quote below, it sounds like I am qualified to perform the
tests.
| Quote: | "(b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted by-
(1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests and inspections
|
are to be performed;
I am the manufacturer of the airplane.
Steve Thomas
===========
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
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le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:01 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
|
1/20/2010
Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more with
your help?
You write:
1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are huge
expanses of this country where this is true."
{Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam the
wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the uncontrolled
airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low
altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance.
There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now. Can you
please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area and
confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt them.
Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace and
therefore is controlled.
2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks
living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)."
{Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet of the
surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b) (5)
(i). See here:
"(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person
may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1)
through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an
operable coded radar beacon transponder.......
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia
at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet
above the surface; and....."
3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without
it turned on."
{Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with no
transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL if
within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled, as
long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with.
Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you have
in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se?
Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or not
is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather the
specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled airspace"
is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 CFR
paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
transponder or not.
Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a set of
low altitude IFR charts for the entire country.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes there
is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard
pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled airspace)
unless a special navigation effort was made.
===================================================
Time: 07:10:22 PM PST US
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification
Bakerocb,
Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If
I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments. No
doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment
(controlled airspace).
If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks
living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c), does
not
apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled.
So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without
it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is true.
If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing.
Jon
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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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|
Bakerocb,
SkyVector.com is an awesome resource. You can view any sectional or IFR chart in the US (maybe more, I haven’t tried) with it and do some very neat trip planning.
You are absolutely right, one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR chart) to see where true “uncontrolled airspace” exists. Said another way, one has to look at a sectional to see at what altitude the floor of Class E airspace exists.
I admit that I took some liberty with my previous statement to make a point. Obviously we have plenty of Class E space here. The Class E airspace where I live (E98) starts at 1200’ AGL (about 6,000’ MSL). That is true for most of the northern half of the state except where an airport with an approach exists (the Class E floor extends to 700’/ground at those locations). There is quite a bit of area (many, many, many square miles) where Class E starts at 14,500’ AGL and a few locations where it starts at 11,500’ and 12,000’.
With that in mind, I do not have a good guess at how much of my actual flying is in uncontrolled airspace (i.e. beneath the floor of Class E) but I would guess about 40%. When going x-country (i.e. hundreds of miles), a higher altitude is typical which places me in Class E. Most of my flying is recreational (to from breakfast, sightseeing, having fun) and is fairly low – I do get above 1200’ AGL but also spend a lot of time below 1200’ AGL.
Here, it is possible/legal (due to the airspace) to pull the transponder (or leave it off) and fly to a repair shop (obviously depending on where the repair shop is….).
Jon Finley
N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22
http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom and dignity. It is the argument of tyrants and it is the creed of slaves" - William Pitt in the House of Commons
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
1/20/2010
Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more
with
your help?
You write:
1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are
huge
expanses of this country where this is true."
{Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam
the
wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the
uncontrolled
airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low
altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance.
|
[quote]
There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now.
Can you
please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area
and
confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt
them.
Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace
and
therefore is controlled.
2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that
folks
living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)."
{Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet
of the
surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b)
(5)
(i). See here:
"(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
person
may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1)
through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with
an
operable coded radar beacon transponder.......
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia
at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500
feet
above the surface; and....."
3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or
without
it turned on."
{Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with
no
transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL
if
within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled,
as
long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with.
Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you
have
in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se?
Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or
not
is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather
the
specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled
airspace"
is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14
CFR
paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
transponder or not.
Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a
set of
low altitude IFR charts for the entire country.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes
there
is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard
pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled
airspace)
unless a special navigation effort was made.
=
Time: 07:10:22 PM PST US
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: RE: Encoder Certification
Bakerocb,
Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If
I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments.
No
doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment
(controlled airspace).
If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that
folks
living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c),
does
not
apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled.
So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or
without
it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is
true.
If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing.
Jon
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
|
1/21/2010
Hello Bill Boyd, You wrote:
1) "OC, I'm pretty sure my experimental airworthiness certificate has a
blank on
it for "manufacturer.""
{Response} That is correct. FAA Form 8130-7 SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS
CERTIFICATE block B is entitled MANUFACTURER. This form is used for many
different kinds of aircraft than just experimental amateur built. Some of
these different kinds of aircraft could indeed have been created by an FAA
recognized manufacturer such as Boeing, Piper, Cessna, etc.
2) "I've seen some builders put their last name there, while others put
"Vans" or whatever."
{Response} Not likely. That form is filled out and signed by the FAA
Representative, either an FAA Employee or a DAR, who signs it in block E.
3) "I'm not looking at my cert right now it's in the plane), but I'm
reasonably sure the box I'm referring to is not labeled "Fabricator.""
{Response} I am looking at my SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE right now.
Block B, MANUFACTURER has N/A as an entry. Block D, BUILDER has my name.
I hope that every homebuilder who has read this thread is now convinced that
they are not their aircraft's manufacturer, which is one of the
qualifications listed in 14 CFR 91.411 as needed in order to perform the
tests required by that paragraph (91.411 Atimeter system and altitude
reporting equipment tests and inspection).
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: I write not to pick on you Bill, but to encourage my fellow builders to
move from the casual arena of "pretty sure" or "hearsay, gossip, and rumor"
to the available facts (which are usually not that hard to come by)
regarding our hobby.
===========================================================
Time: 06:00:47 AM PST US
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification
From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
OC, I'm pretty sure my experimental airworthiness certificate has a blank on
it for "manufacturer." I've seen some builders put their last name there,
while others put "Vans" or whatever. I'm not looking at my cert right now
(it's in the plane), but I'm reasonably sure the box I'm referring to is not
labeled "Fabricator."
-Bill B
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
|
1/21/2010
Hello Again Jon Finley, Thank you for responding to my request (copied
below) to review the charting of controlled and uncontrolled airspace in
your area.
Before I respond to the specific points that you made in that charting
regard I would like to again remind all of the readers regarding the non
relevance of generic controlled airspace when it comes to determining
whether or not an aircraft must be equipped with an operable coded
transponder.
I repeat: "Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a
transponder or
not is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather
the
specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled airspace"
is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 CFR
paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
transponder or not."
You wrote:
1) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR chart)
to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists."
{Response} Is that really true? I don't have the current appropriate
sectional and low altitude IFR charts of the areas out west to compare side
by side, but the few sectional charts that I do have (outdated) of the areas
where I think there should be some uncontrolled Class G airspace going from
the surface up to 14,500 MSL feet do not identify this airspace. But this
Class G airspace going from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL is the
airspace that I believe is shown in brown on the low altitude IFR charts.
2) "Said another way,one has to look at a sectional to see at what altitude
the floor of Class E
airspace exists."
{Response} I agree, the sectionals do show where the floor of controlled
Class E airspace is at either 700 feet (using magenta colored shading) or
1,200 feet (using blue color shading) above the surface.
But do the sectionals in your area also show the uncontrolled Class G
airspace that goes from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL like the low
altitude charts show with brown shading? If so how do the sectionals show
this same airspace?
3) "There is quite a bit of area (many, many, many square miles) where Class
E starts
at 14,500' AGL and a few locations where it starts at 11,500' and 12,000'."
{Response} And again it does not matter where Class E starts, 700 feet above
the surface, 1,200 feet above the surface, 11,500 feet MSL, 12,000 feet MSL
or 14,500 feet MSL when it comes to where one needs an operable coded
transponder in an aircraft because it is paragraph 14 CFR 91.215 (b) (5)
(i), (along with the other relevant paragraphs in 91.215 (b)), that
determines transponder requirement. The relevant numbers in 91.215 (b) (5)
(i) are to be below 10,000 feet MSL or within 2,500 feet of the surface in
order to operate without a transponder. Even if one is operating in that
uncontrolled Class G airspace between 10,000 feet MSL and the beginning of
controlled Class E airspace at 14,500 feet MSL one must have an operable
coded transponder.
4) "Here, it is possible/legal (due to the airspace) to pull the transponder
(or
leave it off) and fly to a repair shop (obviously depending on where the
repair shop is..).'
{Response} Agreed, as long as one is in compliance with 14 CFR 91.215 (b).
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
=======================================================
Time: 09:08:18 AM PST US
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification
Bakerocb,
SkyVector.com is an awesome resource. You can view any sectional or IFR
chart in the US (maybe more, I haven't tried) with it and do some very neat
trip planning.
You are absolutely right, one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR
chart) to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists. Said another way,
one has to look at a sectional to see at what altitude the floor of Class E
airspace exists.
I admit that I took some liberty with my previous statement to make a point.
Obviously we have plenty of Class E space here. The Class E airspace where
I live (E98) starts at 1200' AGL (about 6,000' MSL). That is true for most
of the northern half of the state except where an airport with an approach
exists (the Class E floor extends to 700'/ground at those locations). There
is quite a bit of area (many, many, many square miles) where Class E starts
at 14,500' AGL and a few locations where it starts at 11,500' and 12,000'.
With that in mind, I do not have a good guess at how much of my actual
flying is in uncontrolled airspace (i.e. beneath the floor of Class E) but I
would guess about 40%. When going x-country (i.e. hundreds of miles), a
higher altitude is typical which places me in Class E. Most of my flying is
recreational (to from breakfast, sightseeing, having fun) and is fairly low
- I do get above 1200' AGL but also spend a lot of time below 1200' AGL.
Here, it is possible/legal (due to the airspace) to pull the transponder (or
leave it off) and fly to a repair shop (obviously depending on where the
repair shop is..).
Jon Finley
============================================================
| Quote: | Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more
|
| Quote: | 1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are
|
| Quote: | expanses of this country where this is true."
|
| Quote: | {Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam
|
| Quote: | wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the
|
| Quote: | airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low
|
| Quote: | altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance.
|
| Quote: | There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now.
|
| Quote: | please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area
|
| Quote: | confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt
|
| Quote: | Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace
|
| Quote: | therefore is controlled.
|
| Quote: | 2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that
|
| Quote: | living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
|
| Quote: | hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
|
| Quote: | airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)."
|
| Quote: | {Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet
|
| Quote: | surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b)
|
| Quote: | "(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
|
| Quote: | may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1)
|
| Quote: | through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with
|
| Quote: | operable coded radar beacon transponder.......
|
| Quote: | (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
|
| Quote: | at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500
|
| Quote: | above the surface; and....."
|
| Quote: | 3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or
|
| Quote: | {Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with
|
| Quote: | transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL
|
| Quote: | within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled,
|
| Quote: | long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with.
|
| Quote: | Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you
|
| Quote: | in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se?
|
| Quote: | Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or
|
| Quote: | is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather
|
| Quote: | specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled
|
| Quote: | is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14
|
| Quote: | paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
|
| Quote: | transponder or not.
|
| Quote: | Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a
|
| Quote: | low altitude IFR charts for the entire country.
|
| Quote: | 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
|
| Quote: | understand knowledge."
|
| Quote: | PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes
|
| Quote: | is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard
|
| Quote: | pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled
|
| Quote: | unless a special navigation effort was made.
|
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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:16 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:
http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm
Jon
[quote] --
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
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You are confused about transponder/encoder requirements for Class E and G. In the lower 48, if you are outside of A,B or C airspace you have to have a transponder if above 10,000 ft, unless within 2500 ft AGL, regardless of whether it is D, E or G. Just because it is G airspace does not mean you don't need a transponder.( also required under or above B&C regardless of altitude). If you want to go above 2500 agl and 10000msl without transponder, you will have to go to Alaska or Hawaii.
Jon Finley wrote: [quote] [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> (jon(at)finleyweb.net)
RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:
http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm
Jon
[quote]--
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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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Oh brother….
Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that what is being said no longer makes sense to anyone.
Next subject please!
Jon
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:37 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RE: Encoder Certification
You are confused about transponder/encoder requirements for Class E and G. In the lower 48, if you are outside of A,B or C airspace you have to have a transponder if above 10,000 ft, unless within 2500 ft AGL, regardless of whether it is D, E or G. Just because it is G airspace does not mean you don't need a transponder.( also required under or above B&C regardless of altitude). If you want to go above 2500 agl and 10000msl without transponder, you will have to go to Alaska or Hawaii.
Jon Finley wrote: [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm Jon [quote]--
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bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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And, to sum it up simply, stay out of class A, B, and C airspace. Fly only below 10,000 feet or closer to the ground than 2500 feet if you have to go above ten to avoid the terrain, and you have no need for, or requirement to have, a transponder.
That leaves the vast majority of the United States Airspace available for flight by a non transponder equipped aircraft.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 1/21/2010 4:55:44 P.M. Central Standard Time, bakerocb(at)cox.net writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
1/21/2010
Hello Again Jon Finley, Thank you for responding to my request (copied
below) to review the charting of controlled and uncontrolled airspace in
your area.
Before I respond to the specific points that you made in that charting
regard I would like to again remind all of the readers regarding the non
relevance of generic controlled airspace when it comes to determining
whether or not an aircraft must be equipped with an operable coded
transponder.
I repeat: "Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a
transponder or
not is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather
the
specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled airspace"
is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 CFR
paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
transponder or not."
You wrote:
1) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR chart)
to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists."
{Response} Is that really true? I don't have the current appropriate
sectional and low altitude IFR charts of the areas out west to compare side
by side, but the few sectional charts that I do have (outdated) of the areas
where I think there should be some uncontrolled Class G airspace going from
the surface up to 14,500 MSL feet do not identify this airspace. But this
Class G airspace going from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL is the
airspace that I believe is shown in brown on the low altitude IFR charts.
2) "Said another way,one has to look at a sectional to see at what altitude
the floor of Class E
airspace exists."
{Response} I agree, the sectionals do show where the floor of controlled
Class E airspace is at either 700 feet (using magenta colored shading) or
1,200 feet (using blue color shading) above the surface.
But do the sectionals in your area also show the uncontrolled Class G
airspace that goes from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL like the low
altitude charts show with brown shading? If so how do the sectionals show
this same airspace?
3) "There is quite a bit of area (many, many, many square miles) where Class
E starts
at 14,500' AGL and a few locations where it starts at 11,500' and 12,000'."
{Response} And again it does not matter where Class E starts, 700 feet above
the surface, 1,200 feet above the surface, 11,500 feet MSL, 12,000 feet MSL
or 14,500 feet MSL when it comes to where one needs an operable coded
transponder in an aircraft because it is paragraph 14 CFR 91.215 (b) (5)
(i), (along with the other relevant paragraphs in 91.215 (b)), that
determines transponder requirement. The relevant numbers in 91.215 (b) (5)
(i) are to be below 10,000 feet MSL or within 2,500 feet of the surface in
order to operate without a transponder. Even if one is operating in that
uncontrolled Class G airspace between 10,000 feet MSL and the beginning of
controlled Class E airspace at 14,500 feet MSL one must have an operable
coded transponder.
4) "Here, it is possible/legal (due to the airspace) to pull the transponder
(or
leave it off) and fly to a repair shop (obviously depending on where the
repair shop is..).'
{Response} Agreed, as long as one is in compliance with 14 CFR 91.215 (b).
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
=======================================================
Time: 09:08:18 AM PST US
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: RE: Encoder Certification
Bakerocb,
SkyVector.com is an awesome resource. You can view any sectional or IFR
chart in the US (maybe more, I haven't tried) with it and do some very neat
trip planning.
You are absolutely right, one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR
chart) to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists. Said another way,
one has to look at a sectional to see at what altitude the floor of Class E
airspace exists.
I admit that I took some liberty with my previous statement to make a point.
Obviously we have plenty of Class E space here. The Class E airspace where
I live (E98) starts at 1200' AGL (about 6,000' MSL). That is true for most
of the northern half of the state except where an airport with an approach
exists (the Class E floor extends to 700'/ground at those locations). There
is quite a bit of area (many, many, many square miles) where Class E starts
at 14,500' AGL and a few locations where it starts at 11,500' and 12,000'.
With that in mind, I do not have a good guess at how much of my actual
flying is in uncontrolled airspace (i.e. beneath the floor of Class E) but I
would guess about 40%. When going x-country (i.e. hundreds of miles), a
higher altitude is typical which places me in Class E. Most of my flying is
recreational (to from breakfast, sightseeing, having fun) and is fairly low
- I do get above 1200' AGL but also spend a lot of time below 1200' AGL.
Here, it is possible/legal (due to the airspace) to pull the transponder (or
leave it off) and fly to a repair shop (obviously depending on where the
repair shop is..).
Jon Finley
============================================================
| Quote: | Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more
|
| Quote: | 1) ".... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are
|
| Quote: | expanses of this country where this is true."
|
| Quote: | {Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam
|
| Quote: | wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the
|
| Quote: | airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low
|
| Quote: | altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance.
|
| Quote: | There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now.
|
| Quote: | please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area
|
| Quote: | confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt
|
| Quote: | Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace
|
| Quote: | therefore is controlled.
|
| Quote: | 2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that
|
| Quote: | living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
|
| Quote: | hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
|
| Quote: | airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)."
|
| Quote: | {Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet
|
| Quote: | surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b)
|
| Quote: | "(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
|
| Quote: | may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1)
|
| Quote: | through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with
|
| Quote: | operable coded radar beacon transponder.......
|
| Quote: | (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
|
| Quote: | at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500
|
| Quote: | above the surface; and....."
|
| Quote: | 3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or
|
| Quote: | {Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with
|
| Quote: | transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL
|
| Quote: | within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled,
|
| Quote: | long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with.
|
| Quote: | Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you
|
| Quote: | in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se?
|
| Quote: | Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or
|
| Quote: | is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather
|
| Quote: | specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled
|
| Quote: | is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14
|
| Quote: | paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
|
| Quote: | transponder or not.
|
| Quote: | Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a
|
| Quote: | low altitude IFR charts for the entire country.
|
| Quote: | 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
|
| Quote: | understand knowledge."
|
| Quote: | PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes
|
| Quote: | is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard
|
| Quote: | pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled
|
| Quote: | unless a special navigation effort was made.
|
|
[quote][b]
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gyoung
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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|
Dude... Give it a rest. I've exercised the delete key way too often. I'm
gone.
| Quote: |
1/21/2010
Hello Again Jon Finley, Thank you for responding to my request (copied
below) to review the charting of controlled and uncontrolled
airspace in your area.
Before I respond to the specific points that you made in that
charting regard I would like to again remind all of the
readers regarding the non relevance of generic controlled
airspace when it comes to determining whether or not an
aircraft must be equipped with an operable coded transponder.
I repeat: "Anyway the real issue here when it comes to
requiring a transponder or not is not the existence or not of
|
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Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
|
So since you don't want to read it, none of the rest of us should be allowed
to? This is how these lists lose the most informed and thoughtful
participants. How about showing a little respect for the rest of us ...
Dude.
Terry
--
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deej(at)deej.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
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On 1/22/2010 12:41 PM, Terry Watson wrote:
| Quote: |
So since you don't want to read it, none of the rest of us should be allowed
to? This is how these lists lose the most informed and thoughtful
participants. How about showing a little respect for the rest of us ...
Dude.
|
Thank you Terry, I feel the same way. I've been reading these posts
with much interest.
I admit to being very curious what "advice" Jon Finley offered to the
FAA inspector, and am hoping he is willing to elaborate... 
I believe the Constitution guarantees the right of free travel, and
does not limit what mode of travel we can use. From my perspective,
flying is a Constitutional Right, not a privilege.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
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grosseair(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:04 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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This whole discussion has me totally exhausted. I personally don't
understand why you just wouldn't buy a transponder... unless, of course.
you're smuggling drugs or are flying some WWI vintage rag bag with no
electrical system. Then I get it, and why would you even care?
John Grosse
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bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:19 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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Good Morning John,
As Always, It All Depends! <G>
I think most of us would agree with your assessment.
The subject came up when a homebuilder wanted to know if he could fly his transponder equipped airplane to another point to get it certified.
That morphed into a discussion as to where a transponder is required.
While most of us do opt to have an operating transponder on board, the fact remains that such a unit is NOT required in most of the airspace utilized by we GA pilots.
Even in areas where a transponder IS required, there are procedures available that may allow a flight to be made with the transponder inoperative.
And, why do we care? As OC says, it's all in the spirit of education. Since there are so many conflicting opinions, it appears that some education is required.
Does that make any sense at all or do you still feel we were wasting your time?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, IL
Stearman N3977A (With a transponder)
In a message dated 1/24/2010 12:08:07 A.M. Central Standard Time, grosseair(at)comcast.net writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
This whole discussion has me totally exhausted. I personally don't
understand why you just wouldn't buy a transponder... unless, of course.
you're smuggling drugs or are flying some WWI vintage rag bag with no
electrical system. Then I get it, and why would you even care?
John ========================; = Use utilities Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
|
[quote][b]
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N4ZQ(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:07 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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Since we are all now exhausted by this subject, lets beat this dead horse one more time.Altitude encoders are required equipment for IFR flight in controlled airspace. And unless the operation is conducted under part 121 or 135, as per FARS, 14CFR Section215(a), they do NOT need to be certified/TSO'd.
So, go to your basement and create your own altitude encoder. Your only obligation under Part 91 is to demonstrate that it meets the performance and environmental standards of any class of TSO-C47b or c or TSO-C112.
Angier Ames
N4ZQ
[img]cid:F74F0E6E-F6EC-46E3-9CD2-2A9CF77EE326[/img]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
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At 09:03 AM 1/24/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: | Since we are all now exhausted by this subject, lets
beat this dead horse one more time.
|
I'm sorry that you feel exhausted . . . education
is a laborious, exacting process that involves the
best-we-know-how-to-do both as teachers and students.
Further, teachers and students come in all forms
of ability and knowledge. The greatest benefit
to the community is not a fixed or predictable process.
But as long as all participants are conducting
themselves honorably, then relief from over-exertion
is simple and obvious . . . don't show up for class.
My wife has students that do that all the time!
Bob . . .
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:33 am Post subject: Encoder Certification |
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A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: Encoder Certification |
|
|
1/24/2010
Hello John Grosse, You wrote: "I personally don't understand why you just
wouldn't buy a transponder..."
{Response} Recall that this thread began with a posting by Steve Thomas (Msg
# 48119 on Jan 16, 2010 using the subject "Encoder Certification") who
wanted to know if he
could fly away from his home base with his newly certified experimental
amateur built airplane without an operating and certified transponder in
order to have the appropriate transponder checks done at another location.
Sorry that it got so drawn out and exhausting as we initially tried to help
him and then got bogged down while trying to clarify some subsequent
postings.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
======================================================
Time: 10:04:57 PM PST US
From: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Encoder Certification
This whole discussion has me totally exhausted. I personally don't
understand why you just wouldn't buy a transponder... unless, of course.
you're smuggling drugs or are flying some WWI vintage rag bag with no
electrical system. Then I get it, and why would you even care?
John Grosse
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