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amekler(at)metrocast.net
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 Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net>
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img]cid:part1.07060704.04020708(at)aviating.com[/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote: [quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]-->
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net) wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com) wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder.................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Thanks. I’ll look into it.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CB4238.C69F46C0[/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net) wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com) wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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| Description: |
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| Viewed: |
5238 Time(s) |
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jump2(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
You need the SB so you can see how they want you to comply,esp. safety wiring the plug.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 7:07 PM
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img]cid:1.954295758(at)web81003.mail.mud.yahoo.com[/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote: [quote]
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: [url=/mc/compose?to=rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler [url=/mc/compose?to=amekler(at)metrocast.net]<amekler(at)metrocast.net>[/url] wrote:
From: Alan Mekler [url=/mc/compose?to=amekler(at)metrocast.net]<amekler(at)metrocast.net>[/url]
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: [url=/mc/compose?to=rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: [url=/mc/compose?to=rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen [url=/mc/compose?to=kellym(at)aviating.com]<kellym(at)aviating.com>[/url] wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen [url=/mc/compose?to=kellym(at)aviating.com]<kellym(at)aviating.com>[/url]
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: [url=/mc/compose?to=rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen [url=/mc/compose?to=kellym(at)aviating.com]<kellym(at)aviating.com>[/url]
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"[url=/mc/compose?to=amekler(at)metrocast.net]<amekler(at)metrocast.net>[/url]
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
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martinaerodrome(at)gmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:57 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Alan,
I experienced a similar problem on my RV8. I switched to Air Flow Performance injecters that have tunable inserts that alow you to micromanage the fuel flow on each injecter. On my RV8 I found that I needed .026,,027 and .028 inserts . If you call them, talk to Dan Rivera and he will advise the corect proceedure.
Good Luck
Dick Martin
RV8 N233M
the fast one
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
I have been trying the GAMI injectors( on the 4th set now) but found the fuel flow on the cylinders varies widely. My cylinder #5 has the richest injector and it still peaks a gallon or more before the other cylinders Before gamis it was 2.5 gallons.. Has any one had this problem? Any solutions?
GAMI does not why the fuel is so unbalanced in this engine. I have 95 hours on the engine and all compressions are good. No intake leaks.
Alan
N668G
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get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CB4567.94108610[/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net) wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com) wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
You need to repeat the test without the injectors to know that it is not the injector. You also need to verify that the line from the flow divider is unobstructed.
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CB4567.94108610[/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net) wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com) wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:34 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the stem. The engine would barely run.
The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did figure out why.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
Alan
Â
Â
Â
Â
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Â
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img][/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
Â
Â
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Â
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net) wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
 Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
Â
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Â
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com) wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> -->Â RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
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Dick Sipp
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
When we were going through the injector balancing process (Don Riverra at Air Flow Performance) we were having trouble getting the cylinders to peak within the desired fuel flow band. Don suggested changing all of the injectors to the same but slightly smaller size and starting over; we were then able to balance the cylinder peaks with .2 GPH with the usual process of exchanging injector inserts. He said with some engines and injector insert combinations the flow divider can be the determining factor in flow rate rather than the injector insert. He also had me check the fuel flow at full throttle to make sure there was still an adequately rich mixture. I am sure Don can provide a better explanation than what I have tried to explain that happened with our engine.
Dick Sipp
RV-10 N110DV 300 hours
[quote][b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance. the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening up their flow dividers.
John Cox
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Dave Saylor
Sent: Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the stem. The engine would barely run.
The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did figure out why.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img][/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net) wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com) wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Kelly,
I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
Alan
--
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to find
out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP might
walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one of their
dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After that it's up
to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but I
remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
That was pure luck.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:
[quote] Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening up
their flow dividers.
John Cox
------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Dave Saylor
*Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a little
speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the stem. The
engine would barely run.
The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
figure out why.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net>wrote:
> Kelly,
>
> My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
> did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming out #5
> even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must be
> in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calling
> Precision tomorrow.
>
> Alan
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Kelly McMullen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of
> the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety
> wire.
> AD 2008-08-14
> SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
> adopting emergency
> airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
> known U.S. owners and
> operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO,
> and HIO series
> reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior
> Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
> series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
> and RSA-10 series fuel
> injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection
> servo plugs, part number
> (P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
> plug hole on the regulator
> cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
> servo plug gasket, P/N
> 365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean
> running engine, which
> could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of
> control of the airplane
>
> (f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
> attempting to turn it by
> hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
> plug moves, it is loose.
> (g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
> (h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
> (1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo
> plug and regulator
> cover only.
> (2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that
> is behind the plug, is
> not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
> (3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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| Back to top |
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Dave,
Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will have to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this weekend.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to find out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP might walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one of their dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After that it's up to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but I remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages. That was pure luck.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance. the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening up their flow dividers.
John Cox
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of Dave Saylor
Sent: Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the stem. The engine would barely run.
The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did figure out why.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> wrote:
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are damaged.
[img]%20[/img]
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net) wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com) wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net> (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
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|
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|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
to continue to fly it that way!?!?! Why? Try telling that
story to a few friends, how you know your fuel system
has a problem, but you're going to go fly it anyway, and see
what kind of reaction they give you. I understand the urge,
but to actually KNOW there is a problem, just fix it first.
The flow divider isn't that complicated on the precision
system. Like Dave said, there is a delicate diaphragm
and a couple other parts, but nothing extreme in there. Go
super slow, take pictures, and have someone there to observe
in case you drop something so you know how it all came apart,
and you should be able to investigate it. On a new airplane,
it's probably something that was in a hose that made it's
way there and is plugging an orifice. If you don't want to
disassemble it yourself, that's fine, and anyone can respect
that....but calling the engine maker isn't necessarily the
best path either....you can always call Precision directly.
It's THEIR fuel system. The engine maker will probably have
the answer, but you're certainly not utilizing all the
resources you can to find the issue. Me, I'd probably
call the local A&P and have him come over and I'd pay him
a little cash to look at it with me. He probably has
experience with them if he's been around a while. He may
even have a good manual on hand (something that would be
nice for you to have too). Then you could get it dealt with
in short order. When it comes right down to it, you
or someone else is either going to be disassembling the thing,
or you're going to be shipping it off for repair/replacement,
but there are only 2 ultimate resolutions.
Flying it ROP will just guarantee that your one cylinder
is going to be running at a different power level and
have different cylinder pressures and things going on than
your other cylinders. You're going to get more
carbon fouling on your good cylinders, or cause some other
things along the way by continuing to fly it.
Sorry to sound harsh, but the last thing we need is someone
out there flying engines in RV-10's with known defects to
not only hurt themselves, but hurt the RV-10's reputation
again. So far of the ones that bought it, at least two of
the 3 that we know of that killed people can be traced
to stupid decisions...and I guess someone has to speak up
when they see it happening. Fuel system issues are one of
the primary mechanical causes of homebuilt aircraft crashes.
Stupid decisions are another major one. Combine the two
and it just makes me cringe. Dan was pretty flippant about
that battery terminal crimp he did when he moved that
battery. But, he'd have had to delay that trip (the one
that he was prepping for that cost him his life) if he'd have
had to wait for the proper tools to crimp the wire. Looks
like maybe waiting that extra day or few might have been
a better choice.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/28/2010 2:22 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
[quote] Dave,
Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will
have to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this
weekend.
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave Saylor
*Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to
find out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP
might walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one
of their dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After
that it's up to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but
I remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
That was pure luck.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com
<mailto:johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>> wrote:
Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening
up their flow dividers.
John Cox
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Dave Saylor
*Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a
little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the
stem. The engine would barely run.
The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
figure out why.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net
<mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net>> wrote:
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming
out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the
problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will
be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of *Kelly McMullen
*Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security
of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the
safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO,
IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and
Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel
injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a
lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss
of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the
servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533,
that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for
damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer
diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not
eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover
that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to
help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive
LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
damaged.
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
*Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
*Subject:* RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your
boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is
in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but
since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I
just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler(at)metrocast.net>
<mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net>/* wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching
probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
*Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe
swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen /<kellym(at)aviating.com>
<mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>/* wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
<mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder.................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>
<mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net>
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Here, here. The temptation to fly is very strong, especially because
it turned out okay last time. Just remember, accidents occur from a
chain of bad decisions and unfortunate happenings. Break the chain and
you stay safe.
On 8/28/2010 12:58 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
to continue to fly it that way!?!?!
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Tim,
I was not the builder of my plane. My A&P also an AI has done all the
trouble shooting. EGT spread is less than 50 degrees when flying 100 degrees
rich of peak.(that's how I have been flying it) At full throttle cylinder #1
runs hotter than cylinder #5. My mechanic called Mattituck because they are
the Precision Service center closest to us and Mattituck has been trouble
shooting the problem with us. The engine only has 100 hours and is still
under warranty. There is no engine roughness unless I try flying lean of
peak.
My A&P saw no problem with flying the airplane. I'll know more on Monday
when we hear from Mattituck but it is most likely we will send the unit in
for service.
Alan
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Alan,
Let me politely, but violently disagree with your A&P. Something is
blocking flow in your flow divider. You have proved that. What you and
your A&P can NOT assure is that whatever is blocking the flow won't
move and completely stop the flow. You cannot be assured of stable
fuel flow. That is why you should NOT fly it until it is fixed. I'm
sure Mattituck will make it right, pronto.
Kelly
A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Tim,
I was not the builder of my plane. My A&P also an AI has done all the
trouble shooting. EGT spread is less than 50 degrees when flying 100 degrees
rich of peak.(that's how I have been flying it) At full throttle cylinder #1
runs hotter than cylinder #5. My mechanic called Mattituck because they are
the Precision Service center closest to us and Mattituck has been trouble
shooting the problem with us. The engine only has 100 hours and is still
under warranty. There is no engine roughness unless I try flying lean of
peak.
My A&P saw no problem with flying the airplane. I'll know more on Monday
when we hear from Mattituck but it is most likely we will send the unit in
for service.
Alan
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Kelly,
I see your point. I'll stay on the ground this weekend.
Alan
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
I've been following this tread and wonder if we are all on the same page
regarding exhaust gas temperatures.
My understanding of the ROP or LOP convention is that the actual EGT value
is of little concern. What is of concern is each cylinders EGT relative to
that specific cylinder's peak EGT. Considering the EGT probes work over a
wide range of temperatures and that each probe installation varies between
cylinders, the absolute exhaust gas temperature spread between cylinders is
of little value other than for gross indication that you have lost a
cylinder.
For example, cylinder #1 may peak at 1450, #2 at 1475, #3 at 1500 and #4 at
1525. If they all peak at the same time and same fuel flow, then you have a
perfect situation. Running my engine I look for the spread between
cylinders of degree below each peak. The Grand Rapid EIS makes this real
easy as the leaning page remembers peak cylinder temperature, then displays
not actual EGT, but degrees below peak EGT for each cylinder. I suggest
that a balance system is, when steady, all cylinders on the same side of
peak (LOP or ROP), and the degrees below peak of each cylinder is within 20
degrees.
The other way to look at this is total engine fuel flow at each cylinder
peak. I find this not as accurate as the fuel flow indication is 0.1 GPH
increments and at steady operation my vary .2 GPH (other may have a more
stable indication than mine). I believe the cylinder EGT tends to be a more
sensitive analysis.
Confirmation of balanced operation may be comparison of CHT actual
temperatures between cylinders. Note however baffle cooling variances can
cause some temperature spread not related to fuel flow.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (560 hrs, most done LOP)
RV-10 (systems install)
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Carl,
You are correct. All of my cylinders each peaked at 1476 but at different
fuel flows. Because cylinder 5 pealed over a gallon richer than the others
I new there was a problem with it not getting enough fuel.
Alan
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
|
|
Yes and no. You are correct, the actual EGT temp on any one cylinder
does not matter relative to other cylinders. The actual EGT on a
normally aspirated engine should be somewhere between 1200 and 1300
degrees at full power on sea level takeoff with full rich. One should
not attempt to make all EGTs be the same for all cylinders at a given
mixture setting.
What you really want is all cylinders to peak at the same FUEL FLOW
indication, and it doesn't matter what EGT they are reading at that
time. Typically you are doing very well if all peak within 0.2gph of
each other. If the spread is more than 0.5 gph, you want to do some
refinement to get smoother running and ability to go further lean of
peak. If you install all EGT probes the exact same distance below the
cylinder flange, and in the same relative position, you MAY get the
EGTs pretty close at the same time they are all peaking, no
guarantees, and it doesn't mean much anyway. A couple of the GAMI
gurus see as much as 90 degree EGT spread at the point that all
cylinders are peaking, and they say don't fret over it.
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Carl Froehlich
<carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
I've been following this tread and wonder if we are all on the same page
regarding exhaust gas temperatures.
My understanding of the ROP or LOP convention is that the actual EGT value
is of little concern. What is of concern is each cylinders EGT relative to
that specific cylinder's peak EGT. Considering the EGT probes work over a
wide range of temperatures and that each probe installation varies between
cylinders, the absolute exhaust gas temperature spread between cylinders is
of little value other than for gross indication that you have lost a
cylinder.
|
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
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