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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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 Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
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There’s lots of factors that come into play here... one of them is as long as the engine is running the prop is cooling the engine. Stop the prop and the engine will in short order heat soak if there is no air passing over the cooling fins. Another is the amount of cooling by the infusion of cool fuel soaked air on every intake stroke. Aircraft engines tend to be large displacement per HP and slower revving giving more time for heat dissipation and more fuel air mix to cool the interior of the cylinders.... If you care to rev them high enough they will no doubt always detonate of backfire. BTW the walls of air-cooled aircraft engine cylinders are not nearly so massive as other engines so they require a lot less to cool them. Remembering the thin walls of the jugs is a good reason not to over rev or intentionally heat soak your expen$ive engine.
As you say the question is loaded... loading is just another factor in whether or not an engine will detonate. If you can unload the engine you may find the detonation will disappear. Now if you can tell me how to unload and engine while climbing 
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: November 21, 2010 9:36 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
The autoignition temp of gasoline is just below 500 deg., below that it needs an ignition source. So maybe the answer is that flash point is not autoignition temp.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
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01234567890123456
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
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Sorry Barry but I can’t help myself from nit picking
The chemistry of the fuel increases or decreases the flash point... Pressure increases the temperature inside the cylinder directly with the pressure so increasing pressure brings the temperature of the mix closer to the flash point. High octane fuels have a higher flash temperature so are slightly less affected by increase in pressure.
Ethanol has a RON of 116 so to make it burn efficiently auto manufacturers increased the CR ( read pressure in the engine ) and played with the injection mapping and spark timing and then called the whole mess a flex fuel engine. Problem is it will run, after a fashion, on lower octane gas but not nearly as efficiently as it will on higher octane. For those of us stranded with only E-XX fuels (I’m not) It’s not a bad idea but if you can still get gas it won’t run as efficiently as one of the older engines.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 22, 2010 2:27 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
BINGO DOUG - BINGO!
Go to the head of the class
Pressure increases the flash point.
Barry
01234567890123456
[quote][b]
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
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Noel:
"Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines.." <---Noel
I do not believe I did. I went through my emails and I could not find anything where I asked about an injected engine.
If you have such an email My Bad.
But, your injected answer only matched one of the criteria to answer the question. 
Barry
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
[quote]
Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
With non-injected engines they will “ping” just about all the time but you will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500 with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotrod they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they would no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs on flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a running joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made his money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
Back from the diversion... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designed to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead auto fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem we are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer and an octane booster.. don’t start me on that one!
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
Noel:
So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION
Barry
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Barry:
I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be appreciable ) but also it means there isn’t any fuel there detonate. Anti knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent knocking.
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Mike,
If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fuel to kill it.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
--
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
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Good Afternoon Martin,
What is the stroke on the 912? Isn't it true that piston speed, not RPM, is what we must deal with?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 11/23/2010 3:28:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, aerobiz1(at)gmail.com writes:
[quote]Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912 speeds, given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ?
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
[quote]
Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
With non-injected engines they will “ping” just about all the time but you will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500 with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotrod they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash test... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they would no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs on flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a running joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made his money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designed to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead auto fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem we are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer and an octane booster... don’t start me on that one!
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
Noel:
So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION
Barry
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Barry:
I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be appreciable ) but also it means there isn’t any fuel there detonate. Anti knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent knocking.
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Mike,
If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fuel to kill it.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
--
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List |
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
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Sorry Noel - - -
What you say about the burn rate due to octane is true.
Higher Octane does burn SLOWER. That is the whole idea about Octane. Micro to Mili-Seconds Slower.
But increased pressures in the cylinder reduce the point of when the gas ignites. It is that simple. It is understandable with the hint I gave about "What temperature does water boil?"
As Friday use to say: " Just the facts, just the facts", do not cloud the simple physics with all the other gobbli-gook.
I'm not designing an engine or formulating a hydrocarbon fuel. All I'm doing is having fun and letting people think on some of the simple physics that takes place in our engines. Understanding some of the very basics helps diagnose problems.
Da-deep, Da-deep, Da-deep, That's all, Noel
Happy Thanksgiving, Ya-All
What Non-Alcoholic - Thanksgiving Chemical makes OLDER people sleep?
I say OLDER because you can't prove it with my Nephews
Barry
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
[quote]
Sorry Barry but I can’t help myself from nit picking
The chemistry of the fuel increases or decreases the flash point... Pressure increases the temperature inside the cylinder directly with the pressure so increasing pressure brings the temperature of the mix closer to the flash point. High octane fuels have a higher flash temperature so are slightly less affected by increase in pressure.
Ethanol has a RON of 116 so to make it burn efficiently auto manufacturers increased the CR ( read pressure in the engine ) and played with the injection mapping and spark timing and then called the whole mess a flex fuel engine. Problem is it will run, after a fashion, on lower octane gas but not nearly as efficiently as it will on higher octane. For those of us stranded with only E-XX fuels (I’m not) It’s not a bad idea but if you can still get gas it won’t run as efficiently as one of the older engines.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 22, 2010 2:27 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
BINGO DOUG - BINGO!
Go to the head of the class
Pressure increases the flash point.
Barry
01 234 56789012 345 6
7
[b]
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aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
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And good morning to you too Bob ( though it is 7.54 am here....)
From memory the stroke of a Rotax 912 is 61.5 mm, but the comment was :
" There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev to the territory of the 912"
I took it meaning RPM, not piston speed. I would guess that a big ol' R3350 would have a piston speed possibly higher than the 912, but we are getting way off topic ....
Best Rgds
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:32 AM, <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Good Afternoon Martin,
What is the stroke on the 912? Isn't it true that piston speed, not RPM, is
> what we must deal with?
|
| Quote: | Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I
have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912 speeds,
given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ?
> Martin
|
| Quote: |
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
>
> Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
>>
|
| Quote: | >
>
> With non-injected engines they will “ping” just about all the time but you
> will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
> quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500
>> with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other
|
| Quote: | > goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
> backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got
>> producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my
|
| Quote: | > friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
> Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotrod
>> they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it
|
| Quote: | > was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on
> the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One
>> of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash
|
| Quote: | > test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all
> the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
>> actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab
|
| Quote: | > with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies
> servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a
>> regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they would
|
| Quote: | > no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
>
>
>
> The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get
>> away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically
|
| Quote: | > tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time.
> They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter
>> torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are
|
| Quote: | > only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They
> are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The
>> interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they
|
| Quote: | > actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a
> particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too
>> much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form a cold
|
| Quote: | > engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
>
>
>
> There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev
>> to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs on
|
| Quote: | > flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a running
> joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was
>> the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made his
|
| Quote: | > money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
>
>
>
> Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designed
>> to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower
|
| Quote: | > octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo
> charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead auto
>> fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem we
|
| Quote: | > are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer and
> an octane booster... don’t start me on that one!
>>
|
| Quote: | >
>
>
> Noel:
>
>
>
> So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
>>
|
| Quote: | > Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
>
> And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
>
>
>
> Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION
>>
|
| Quote: | >
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
>>
|
| Quote: | > Barry:
>
>
>
> I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
> electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders
>> just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at
|
| Quote: | > that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be
> appreciable ) but also it means there isn’t any fuel there detonate. Anti
>> knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent
|
| Quote: | > knocking.
>
>
>
> Noel
>
>
>
>
>
>> Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
|
| Quote: | > internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>>
|
| Quote: | >
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>> If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off
|
| Quote: | > that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be
> prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run
>> dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder
|
| Quote: | > head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of
> fuel to kill it.
> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
>>
|
[quote]>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
Good Morning Martin,
Not too good on the conversions, but the wonderful Turbo Compound R-3350 turned as high as 2900 RPM in it's most powerful versions and the stroke was 6.312 inches. Probably at least as high a piston speed as the Rotax if not higher! Lets see. 2.54 mm per inch or is it cm? Must be 2.54 cm. 25.4 times 6.32. Wow! The Rotax is hardly moving by comparison
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 11/23/2010 4:08:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, aerobiz1(at)gmail.com writes:
[quote]And good morning to you too Bob ( though it is 7.54 am here....)
From memory the stroke of a Rotax 912 is 61.5 mm, but the comment was :
" There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev to the territory of the 912"
I took it meaning RPM, not piston speed. I would guess that a big ol' R3350 would have a piston speed possibly higher than the 912, but we are getting way off topic ....
Best Rgds
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:32 AM, <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] Good Afternoon Martin,
What is the stroke on the 912? Isn't it true that piston speed, not RPM, is
what we must deal with?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 11/23/2010 3:28:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
aerobiz1(at)gmail.com (aerobiz1(at)gmail.com) writes:
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I
have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912 speeds,
given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ?
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
>
> Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
>
>
>
> With non-injected engines they will “ping” just about all the time but you
> will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
> quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500
> with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other
> goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
> backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got
> producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my
> friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
> Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotrod
> they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it
> was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on
> the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One
> of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash
> test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all
> the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
> actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab
> with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies
> servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a
> regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they would
> no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
>
>
>
> The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get
> away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically
> tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time.
> They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter
> torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are
> only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They
> are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The
> interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they
> actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a
> particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too
> much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form a cold
> engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
>
>
>
> There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev
> to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs on
> flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a running
> joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was
> the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made his
> money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
>
>
>
> Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designed
> to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower
> octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo
> charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead auto
> fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem we
> are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer and
> an octane booster... don’t start me on that one!
>
>
>
> Noel
>
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
> Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
>
>
>
> Noel:
>
>
>
> So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
>
> Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
>
> And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
>
>
>
> Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
>
> Barry:
>
>
>
> I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
> electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders
> just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at
> that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be
> appreciable ) but also it means there isn’t any fuel there detonate. Anti
> knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent
> knocking.
>
>
>
> Noel
>
>
>
>
>
> Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
> internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off
> that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be
> prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run
> dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder
> head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of
> fuel to kill it.
> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:14 am Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
Tryptophan....from the turkey.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1070 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
| Quote: |
Happy Thanksgiving, Ya-All
What Non-Alcoholic - Thanksgiving Chemical makes OLDER people sleep?
I say OLDER because you can't prove it with my Nephews
Barry
|
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
Very Good Lynn....
Easy to see you are not O.D.ing on turkey as yet...
Move to the head of the class
Me, I will be indulging in a bit of the grape, ALL the fixings and a few slices of home made pumpkin & apple pie.
My sleep will come from over indulgence and family
To me Thanksgiving is the best holiday of the year.
And the most fun is Halloween.
Happy Thanksgiving All
Barry
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
Tryptophan....from the turkey.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1070 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
| Quote: |
Happy Thanksgiving, Ya-All
What Non-Alcoholic - Thanksgiving Chemical makes OLDER people sleep?
I say OLDER because you can't prove it with my Nephews
Barry
|
[b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
Let’s see... P&W 4360... Lots of different configurations but a 28 cyl version was geared .3:1 so a close estimation of the crank speed would be around 6000 rpm. The 1830 twin Wasp is also geared but closer to 2:3 would give a WOT somewhere under 5000rpm.
For those of you who like the lycoming and Continental when you see a G in the suffix of the engine size that usually means it is gear driven and the crank turns at higher speed than the prop... Sound familiar???
Just google some of the Radials and it is there in the specs While you’re at it Google Rolls Royce Merlin 0.42:1
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: November 23, 2010 5:46 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912 speeds, given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ?
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
With non-injected engines they will “ping” just about all the time but you will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500 with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotrod they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they would no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs on flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a running joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made his money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designed to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead auto fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem we are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer and an octane booster... don’t start me on that one!
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
Noel:
So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION
Barry
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Barry:
I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be appreciable ) but also it means there isn’t any fuel there detonate. Anti knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent knocking.
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Mike,
If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fuel to kill it.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
--
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
Good Afternoon Noel,
I think we have the gear ratio working in the wrong direction! The RPM given in the data sheet is for the engine shaft. It will turn a maximum of 2900 in the R3350TC version. My recollection without looking it up is that the gear reduction was 16/9. When the engine was turning 1600 RPM, the propellor shaft was turning 900 RPM. You could almost see the individual blades! The reduction gearing did vary on a few models, but the prop always turned slower than the engine.
I will check the TC Data and see what the Corn Cob turned,
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 11/24/2010 3:02:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:
| Quote: |
Let’s see... P&W 4360... Lots of different configurations but a 28 cyl version was geared .3:1 so a close estimation of the crank speed would be around 6000 rpm. The 1830 twin Wasp is also geared but closer to 2:3 would give a WOT somewhere under 5000rpm.
For those of you who like the lycoming and Continental when you see a G in the suffix of the engine size that usually means it is gear driven and the crank turns at higher speed than the prop... Sound familiar???
Just google some of the Radials and it is there in the specs While you’re at it Google Rolls Royce Merlin 0.42:1
Noel
|
[quote][b]
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
Noel:
Here are a couple of links that do a good job of explaining the P&W R-4360.
http://www.enginehistory.org/r-4360ops1.htm
From this site you will see 2700 RPM is basic for the engine.
Remember this is 1940's 50's time period they did not do 5K RPM,think of their Tachs.
This site gives the gear ratio of REDUCING the engines RPM to keep the prop tip speed below supersonic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_R-4360
The Ratio is: 0.375:1, engine to prop
And the Super Charger, well that had a 6.374:1
Barry
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
[quote]
Let’s see... P&W 4360... Lots of different configurations but a 28 cyl version was geared .3:1 so a close estimation of the crank speed would be around 6000 rpm. The 1830 twin Wasp is also geared but closer to 2:3 would give a WOT somewhere under 5000rpm.
For those of you who like the lycoming and Continental when you see a G in the suffix of the engine size that usually means it is gear driven and the crank turns at higher speed than the prop... Sound familiar???
Just google some of the Radials and it is there in the specs While you’re at it Google Rolls Royce Merlin 0.42:1
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: November 23, 2010 5:46 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912 speeds, given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ?
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
With non-injected engines they will “ping” just about all the time but you will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500 with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotrod they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they would no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs on flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a running joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made his money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designed to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead auto fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem we are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer and an octane booster... don’t start me on that one!
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Shut Down
Noel:
So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION
Barry
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Barry:
I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be appreciable ) but also it means there isn’t any fuel there detonate. Anti knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent knocking.
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Mike,
If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fuel to kill it.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
--
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:27 am Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
I used to work as a photographer at a university, so I had access to
a bunch of professors, and I had asked one of them about tryptophan,
so the hardest part of your question for me was...how the hell do you
spell it? : )
I gotta save the intake of tryptophan until after my Turkey Day
flight....if the rain stops.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1070 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
On Nov 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
| Quote: | Very Good Lynn....
Easy to see you are not O.D.ing on turkey as yet...
Move to the head of the class
Me, I will be indulging in a bit of the grape, ALL the fixings and
a few slices of home made pumpkin & apple pie.
My sleep will come from over indulgence and family
To me Thanksgiving is the best holiday of the year.
And the most fun is Halloween.
Happy Thanksgiving All
Barry
|
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: Engine Shut Down |
|
|
Hey Lynn,
You understand my problem.... Getting it spelled correctly
I like the idea of a Turkey Day Flight (TDF) sounds important, sort of like a TFR
4th of July is my night to fly and I have always wanted to do January 1st but it has been difficult to not party the night before. But it is usually too many hamburgers that puts me and the plane over gross.
So, until the next email session - - - Have a Happy Thanksgiving
AND to the rest of the Gaggle - - - Have a Happy Thanksgiving
EAT hearty, DRINK well
and stay STATIONARY
Barry
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
I used to work as a photographer at a university, so I had access to a bunch of professors, and I had asked one of them about tryptophan, so the hardest part of your question for me was...how the hell do you spell it? : )
I gotta save the intake of tryptophan until after my Turkey Day flight....if the rain stops.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1070 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
On Nov 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
| Quote: | Very Good Lynn....
Easy to see you are not O.D.ing on turkey as yet...
Move to the head of the class
Me, I will be indulging in a bit of the grape, ALL the fixings and a few slices of home made pumpkin & apple pie.
My sleep will come from over indulgence and family
To me Thanksgiving is the best holiday of the year.
And the most fun is Halloween.
Happy Thanksgiving All
Barry
|
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