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Aluminum Order??

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John.Hines(at)craftontull
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: Aluminum Order??

I looked at the part layouts on ch601.org.  Here are the quantities and

sizes I came up with.  I already have my tail section complete from a

kit and I was hoping I didn't have to purchase as much aluminum.  But

the tail parts are scattered throughout all the sheets and it looks like

I am stuck purchasing 26 sheets.  Anyway, below are the quantities and

the prices from Aircraft Spruce.  How much is shipping on an order like

this?  Are these good prices?



Thickness	Size		Qnty	Price		Sub Total

0.016		144 x 48	1	$89.00	$89.00

0.020		144 x 48	2	$105.55	$211.10

0.020		96 x 48	1	$84.80	$84.80

0.025		144 x 48	13	$78.00	$1,014.00

0.025		96 x 48	2	$51.92	$103.84

0.032		144 x 48	2	$100.95	$201.90

0.040		144 x 48	1	$127.95	$127.95

0.063		48 x 24	1	$32.12	$32.12

0.090		24 x 24	1	$21.60	$21.60

0.125		24 x 24	1	$29.92	$29.92

0.1875	3.8 x 3.3	1			$0.00

				

				

Total Price	$1,916.23



John

John R. Hines

IT Manager

Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.

901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200

Rogers, AR 72756

Office: 479-878-2449

Mobile: 479-366-4783

Fax: 479-631-6224

John.Hines(at)craftontull.com

www.craftontull.com



Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Wow, that's some pretty decent pricing John.  I wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of it, providing shipping isn't too bad.  I found it cheaper to order locally and forgo shipping costs.  The local material seems to be of higher quality (fewer scratches) and cost is equivalent to AS when shipping is factored in.  You'll be looking at delivery by truck if you bring all that material in at once (the .025 sheet alone is 220 lbs total).  I think it's a case of a half-dozen of one or six of the other.

     If you've already purchased your plans, you'll notice the fuselage is built in several different 'stages'.  You needn't purchase all your materials at once, unless your wallet is so equipped.  : )  Also, be very careful when pricing some of the other materials on Aircraft Spruce.  Items like the aluminum bar stock and angle are MUCH cheaper through McMaster Carr (traditionally a fairly spendy vendor).  I would imagine them to be even cheaper through some of the discount catalogs online.  

     One final note:  Unless you cut and fabricate all the parts from a particular sheet at the same time, you'll be buying more material than is listed on CH601.  If you're like the rest of us, you'll have your share of mis-cuts and remakes.  It's all part of the building process.

     Happy building!

   

  

    

John Hines <John.Hines(at)craftontull.com> wrote: 



I looked at the part layouts on ch601.org.  Here are the quantities and

sizes I came up with.  I already have my tail section complete from a

kit and I was hoping I didn't have to purchase as much aluminum.  But

the tail parts are scattered throughout all the sheets and it looks like

I am stuck purchasing 26 sheets.  Anyway, below are the quantities and

the prices from Aircraft Spruce.  How much is shipping on an order like

this?  Are these good prices?



Thickness Size  Qnty Price  Sub Total

0.016  144 x 48 1 $89.00 $89.00

0.020  144 x 48 2 $105.55 $211.10

0.020  96 x 48 1 $84.80 $84.80

0.025  144 x 48 13 $78.00 $1,014.00

0.025  96 x 48 2 $51.92 $103.84

0.032  144 x 48 2 $100.95 $201.90

0.040  144 x 48 1 $127.95 $127.95

0.063  48 x 24 1 $32.12 $32.12

0.090  24 x 24 1 $21.60 $21.60

0.125  24 x 24 1 $29.92 $29.92

0.1875 3.8 x 3.3 1   $0.00

    

    

Total Price $1,916.23



John

John R. Hines

IT Manager

Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.

901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200

Rogers, AR 72756

Office: 479-878-2449

Mobile: 479-366-4783

Fax: 479-631-6224

John.Hines(at)craftontull.com

www.craftontull.com



Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Keep in mind to double check the layouts of the sheets against your set

of plans. Their actually is no .020 in the Zodiac 601XL but in this

layout the .020 has been substituted for the .016, personally if I were

starting over I would also go this route as it will produce a better

finish on your skins. But ailerons must stay at .016. Check locally at a

place called Brass and Copper I believe is the name. You pricing from

ACS seems in order and I'm not sure if you can do better, but those are

the prices I was paying for single sheets when I bought my alum when

buying a large quantity in one shot like you are planning you should be

able to do much better. There are locations in Tennessee and Missouri. I

would also recommend calling Zenith Aircraft and getting a quote from

them, they would likely sell you sheets also.



Copper and Brass

Memphis

4056 Homewood Road

Suite 3

Memphis, TN  38118

Sales: 800-926-2600

Sales Fax: 901 360 9415



St. Louis

1215 Dielman Industrial Court

Olivette, MO  63132

Sales: 800-926-2600

Sales Fax: 847-490-9081



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com



--

rjscep(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:09 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi John, the prices are fine, when I looked at the 

 shipping charges for my area, it wasn't worth it.

 I live here in the Northeast in Mass. I ordered my

 aluminum from Yarde Metals and picked it up in NH.

 I paid $285 for 3 sheets of .025 and they cut it 

 for me with a $60 cutting charge. I put it all in 

 my station wagon. I have to get more aluminum and

 will do the same as before. Bob S. Do not archive.


	




--- John Hines <John.Hines(at)craftontull.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <John.Hines(at)craftontull.com>

 

 I looked at the part layouts on ch601.org.  Here are

 the quantities and

 sizes I came up with.  I already have my tail

 section complete from a

 kit and I was hoping I didn't have to purchase as

 much aluminum.  But

 the tail parts are scattered throughout all the

 sheets and it looks like

 I am stuck purchasing 26 sheets.  Anyway, below are

 the quantities and

 the prices from Aircraft Spruce.  How much is

 shipping on an order like

 this?  Are these good prices?

 

 Thickness	Size		Qnty	Price		Sub Total

 0.016		144 x 48	1	$89.00	$89.00

 0.020		144 x 48	2	$105.55	$211.10

 0.020		96 x 48	1	$84.80	$84.80

 0.025		144 x 48	13	$78.00	$1,014.00

 0.025		96 x 48	2	$51.92	$103.84

 0.032		144 x 48	2	$100.95	$201.90

 0.040		144 x 48	1	$127.95	$127.95

 0.063		48 x 24	1	$32.12	$32.12

 0.090		24 x 24	1	$21.60	$21.60

 0.125		24 x 24	1	$29.92	$29.92

 0.1875	3.8 x 3.3	1			$0.00

 				

 				

 Total Price	$1,916.23

 

 John

 

 

 John R. Hines

 IT Manager

 Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.

 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200

 Rogers, AR 72756

 Office: 479-878-2449

 Mobile: 479-366-4783

 Fax: 479-631-6224

 John.Hines(at)craftontull.com

 www.craftontull.com

 

 Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to

 anticipate and understand the needs of our clients

 and provide them with successful solutions.

 

 

 This email and any files transmitted with it are

 confidential and intended solely for the use of the

 individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If

 you have received this email in error please notify

 the system manager. This message contains

 confidential information and is intended only for

 the individual named. If you are not the named

 addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or

 copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender

 immediately by e-mail if you have received this

 e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your

 system. If you are not the intended recipient you

 are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing

 or taking any action in reliance on the contents of

 this information is strictly prohibited. 

 

 

 

 



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__________________________________________________

randy(at)shadycreekoutlaw
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Hi Zodie Rocket...



Just curious why, from a design perspective, the "ailerons must stay at 

.016"...?  I just scratch built my ailerons over the weekend and I can tell 

you from all of that, is that I hate .016" skins!  I did make them from 

.016" as the plans called for, but would have much rather been working with 

.025"...



What would be the ramifications of making the aileron skins from .025" 

instead of .016"?



Thanks,



Randy

XL Wings - Plans Only

http://www.n344rb.com

Do Not Archive

---

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Randy, that's a question probably best answered by the ZAC folks. My guess is 

the .16 is used because of the flex hinge. Thicker metal may make the 

ailerons stiffer than they already are and possibly the thicker metal would be more 

prone to cracking ? Both are just quess'. There are probably air dynamic design 

issues as well. I was surprised to learn that some WWII fighter planes, 

though metal constructed, had fabric covered control surfaces. FWIW, best regards, 

Bill

do not archive

martyn(at)flight.co.za
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Hi,



A chap here in South Africa, like you, detests working with .016, so he

opted to cover everything on his 701 in 0.20. His plane by the way, was

heavier, but there were less smileys and dents.



Ciao

do not archive



[quote] 

 <randy(at)shadycreekoutlaws.com>



 Hi Zodie Rocket...



 Just curious why, from a design perspective, the "ailerons must stay at

 .016"...?  I just scratch built my ailerons over the weekend and I can

 tell

 you from all of that, is that I hate .016" skins!  I did make them from

 .016" as the plans called for, but would have much rather been working

 with

 .025"...



 What would be the ramifications of making the aileron skins from .025"

 instead of .016"?



 Thanks,



 Randy

 XL Wings - Plans Only

 http://www.n344rb.com

 Do Not Archive

 ---

randy(at)shadycreekoutlaw
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Shortly after firing off my original email, the thought of the flex hinge, 

which I opted to use over the piano hinge, came to mind...



I can't image there would be any aerodynamic issues with a thicker material, 

although there may be, I'm not an expert in that field...  I wasn't aware of 

the fabric flight surfaces on WWII planes though...  I did notice a while 

back on a friends Helio Courier that the ailerons on it were fabric...  I am 

attaching a picture of my friend with his Helio, you can't see the ailerons, 

but you can see the flaps and elevator, they are aluminum... ???



I hope I don't open up a can of worms with this question like I did with the 

"Bolt Torque"!!!  I'm just curious and with me being a scratch builder, this 

kind of information may come in useful down the road somewhere...



Thanks again,



Randy

XL Wings - Plans Only

http://www.n344rb.com

Do Not Archive



---

randy(at)shadycreekoutlaw
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

One more question on aileron construction:



The plans, at least my set, doesn't say exactly how much material should be 

"sticking out" for the flex hinge...  The ailerons are twisted from root to 

tip by putting a 13mm block under the trailing edge of the tip... After this 

twist is applied, it throws the skin a bit out of square...  I ended up with 

45mm on the tip and 50mm on the root, hanging over for the flex hinge... I 

can only hope this will be enough material...  Assuming the drawings are to 

scale, I 'deduce' that I will need at least 40mm...



Can anyone tell me how much is available on the aileron kit parts for the 

flex hinge?



I'm attaching a picture of the right side aileron I completed yesterday... I 

opted to install the CZAW mod aileron horn...



Thanks again,



Randy

XL Wings - Plans Only

http://www.n344rb.com

Do Not Archive





---

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

I was going with the "flex hinge" on the ailerons, but when I fitted the flap 

and aileron to the wing, there was not nearly enough skin, with the trailing 

edges of the flap and aileron aligned.  The predrilled holes in the wing skin 

for the aileron would have given me about a 3mm edge distance on the "flex" 

edge of the aileron skin. I informed ZAC and after some back and forth, they 

sent me a pair of hinges with 30mm flanges and a reinforcing angle.  The 

predrilled holes near the wing tip were OK, so I suspect that it had something to do 

with that washout on the aileron.



Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage

Do not archive

randy(at)shadycreekoutlaw
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

If when I start to fit the flex hinge ailerons and they turn out this way, 

with not enough material, I'll just build another set and make the hinged 

type by the plans.... BUT, what if the plans for the hinged type didn't take 

into account the washout...?  I'd be back in the same boat again...  



Randy



Do Not Archive

---

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Randy,  I didn't have to scrap the aileron because of the flex hinge problem. 

 That edge of the skin was simply trimmed to fit the regular hinge condition.



Jay



Do not archive

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Yup that is the reason for the .016 skin, also you want to be able to

introduce the proper amount of twist that was calculated using the .016,

Building a 701 out of .020 instead of .016 adds about 35-40lbs extra but

looks and sounds a lot better. In my opinion it is a fair tradeoff. 



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com



--

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Hi Randy,



The drawings are NOT TO SCALE.  That is emphasized many places in the 

drawing package.



On my drawings (sheet 6W2 dated 12/04) the hinge size is set by the 

bottom left corner of the drawing.  It shows a minimum 45 mm 

length.  That means your aileron should be just fine.



Paul

XL Fuselage

do not archive



At 09:26 AM 6/19/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     I ended up with 45mm on the tip and 50mm on the root, hanging 

 over for the flex hinge... I can only hope this will be enough 

 material...  Assuming the drawings are to scale,

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Changing the weight and balance of the ailerons might lead to flutter 

problems.  You don't want to experience that - it can be your last experience.



Paul

XL Fuselage

do not archive



At 08:59 AM 6/19/2006, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I can't image there would be any aerodynamic issues with a thicker 

material, although there may be, I'm not an expert in that field...

randy(at)shadycreekoutlaw
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: Aluminum Order??

Thanks Paul,



I laid the flaps and ailerons out on the table yesterday and aligned their 

trailing edges and did some "guesstimating" and measuring and I agree, I 

think there will be enough material...but just enough...



Thanks,



Randy

Do Not Archive



---

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