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engine pressure senders installation

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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Tim



So, what is the way to mount engine pressure senders not cantilevered?



Carlos  

At 03:04 PM 2/5/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Andres 

 <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
	




Most of us probably know this, but cantilever mounted engine pressure 

senders is bad practice, steel or brass. I have personally seen steel 

ones break.

Tim

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:01 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

via a flexible hose and the pressure sensors on he FW ( I use the T bar 

from Van's to mount them, advantage is I can have a pressure sensor plus 

a switch on the same hose for oil pressure. SHould have somewhere some 

pictures from my Glastar



On 06.02.2014 16:45, Carlos Trigo wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tim



 So, what is the way to mount engine pressure senders not cantilevered?

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Hi Werner



Well, that one I know, I've used it in the RV-9A and also the -10, but the

senders are also cantilever mounted in the T bar ... I know that the T bar

will not shake as the engine itself, but there are also cantilevered, and

can break as well



Carlos

-----Mensagem original-----

De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Werner

Schneider

Enviada: 6 de fevereiro de 2014 16:00

Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Assunto: Re: engine pressure senders installation




--> <glastar(at)gmx.net>



via a flexible hose and the pressure sensors on he FW ( I use the T bar from

Van's to mount them, advantage is I can have a pressure sensor plus a switch

on the same hose for oil pressure. SHould have somewhere some pictures from

my Glastar



On 06.02.2014 16:45, Carlos Trigo wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 --> <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>



 Tim



 So, what is the way to mount engine pressure senders not cantilevered?

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:34 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Hi Carlos

Obviously they have to be installed cantilevered, just don't mount them to the vibrating engine. 

Remote mount them with a block like this Aircraft spruce part, [url=tel:04-00318]04-00318[/url], mounted on the firewall, run -3 hose to it with a restrictor fitting at the engine to restrict flow if there is a hose failure or fire. This for oil and fuel pressure.

Tim



On Feb 6, 2014, at 7:45 AM, "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>



Tim



So, what is the way to mount engine pressure senders not cantilevered?



Carlos  

At 03:04 PM 2/5/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Andres 

	
 <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net (tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net)>



Most of us probably know this, but cantilever mounted engine pressure 

senders is bad practice, steel or brass. I have personally seen steel 

ones break.

Tim



http://forums.matr====================================================sp;                        &nbsp href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con=============================================





[b]

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Carlos, mine are vertical so much different scenario, and the vibration 

level is magnitudes less then directly on the engine housing. You could 

mount it on the hose only and then fix the sensor by a clamp around the 

sensor housing that is the least stress on them.



Cheers Werner



On 06.02.2014 17:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Werner



 Well, that one I know, I've used it in the RV-9A and also the -10, but the

 senders are also cantilever mounted

email(at)jaredyates.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:34 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

I put a large adel clamp around my oil pressure sender, actually two of them.  Then those adel clamps are bolted to smaller clamps that go around two nearby engine mount tubes.  As I understand the term cantilevered, I would say that mine is not.

 



On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>

 

 Carlos, mine are vertical so much different scenario, and the vibration level is magnitudes less then directly on the engine housing. You could mount it on the hose only and then fix the sensor by a clamp around the sensor housing that is the least stress on them.

  

 Cheers Werner

 

 On 06.02.2014 17:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

 



 Hi Werner

 

 Well, that one I know, I've used it in the RV-9A and also the -10, but the

 senders are also cantilever mounted

 

	
 

 ====================================

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 



[b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Carlos,



You can see how I did it at: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=67636



The first 11 pictures show how I did a remote mount of the oil pressure sender.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Feb 6, 2014, at 9:45 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> wrote:






Tim



So, what is the way to mount engine pressure senders not cantilevered?



Carlos

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Hi Werner, with respect, it is NOT a much different scenario. Its orientation makes no difference, it's a cantilevered mounted sensor no matter where or how you mount it. It's the mass vibrating on the end of the threaded fitting that may cause the failure. 

If you support it like suggested with an Adel clamp that may work, but the correct fix (and good practice) is to remote mount it somewhere other than on the engine. 

Tim 

[quote] Werner Schneider> 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Carlos, mine are vertical so much different scenario, and the vibration level is magnitudes less then directly on the engine housing. You could mount it on the hose only and then fix the sensor by a clamp around the sensor housing that is the least stress on them.

  

 Cheers Werner

 





	


[b]

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:12 pm Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Tim,



mine are mounted remote on the Firewall (which indirectly is written in 

my posting (vibration level.....)), directly on the engine IS a bad idea.



Werner



On 06.02.2014 23:06, Tim Andres wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Werner, with respect, it is NOT a much different scenario. Its

 orientation makes no difference, it's a cantilevered mounted sensor no

 matter where or how you mount it. It's the mass vibrating on the end of

 the threaded fitting that may cause the failure.

 If you support it like suggested with an Adel clamp that may work, but

 the correct fix (and good practice) is to remote mount it somewhere

 other than on the engine.



 Tim



>  Werner Schneider>

>     Carlos, mine are vertical so much different scenario, and the

>     vibration level is magnitudes less then directly on the engine

>     housing. You could mount it on the hose only and then fix the

>     sensor by a clamp around the sensor housing that is the least

>     stress on them.

>

>     Cheers Werner

> *

> *

 *

 *

mapratherid(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:03 pm Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Nice set of photos Bob..  I wonder if you also went back and provided strain relief for the hose.  I believe strain relief for the hose might be more important than remote mounting the sender. 



Regards,

Matt-



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 6, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Carlos,

 

 You can see how I did it at: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=67636

 

 The first 11 pictures show how I did a remote mount of the oil pressure sender.

 

 Blue skies & tailwinds,

 Bob Borger

 Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).

 Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

 3705 Lynchburg Dr.

 Corinth, TX  76208-5331

 Cel: 817-992-1117

 rlborger(at)mac.com

 

 On Feb 6, 2014, at 9:45 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> wrote:

 

 

 

 Tim

 

 So, what is the way to mount engine pressure senders not cantilevered?

 

 Carlos

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

I'm curious. How many pressure senders have broken *when directly 

mounted to the engine*? I see a lot of reports of failures when there's 

an extension, adapter, T fitting, etc, but there are thousands (hundreds 

of thousands? millions?) of those sensors that live while directly 

mounted on all types of automotive, industrial and a/c engines.

I might be wrong, but these are the questions I'd ask: How stiff is a 

braided oil line when it's fully pressurized while the engine is 

running? What does it weigh? How much vibration gets transmitted up the 

fairly stiff pressurized line? How does that weight & vibration affect 

the cantilevered *aluminum* adapters connecting it to the pressure 

sensor? I suspect that the cantilevered weight of the hose is more than 

the weight of the sensor, on its steel mounting threads, and there will 

still be a lot of vibration transmitted to the fittings.

Am I mistaken?

Charlie

On 2/12/2014 11:58 PM, Matthew Prather wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Nice set of photos Bob..  I wonder if you also went back and provided strain relief for the hose.  I believe strain relief for the hose might be more important than remote mounting the sender.

 Regards,

 Matt-

> On Feb 6, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Carlos,

>

> You can see how I did it at: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=67636

>

> The first 11 pictures show how I did a remote mount of the oil pressure sender.

>

> Blue skies & tailwinds,

> Bob Borger

> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).

> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.

> Corinth, TX  76208-5331

> Cel: 817-992-1117

> rlborger(at)mac.com

>

> On Feb 6, 2014, at 9:45 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Tim

>

> So, what is the way to mount engine pressure senders not cantilevered?

>

> Carlos

>

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

At 09:12 AM 2/13/2014, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>



 I'm curious. How many pressure senders have broken *when directly mounted to the engine*? I see a lot of reports of failures when there's an extension, adapter, T fitting, etc, but there are thousands (hundreds of thousands? millions?) of those sensors that live while directly mounted on all types of automotive, industrial and a/c engines. 	




   We need to sift the simple ideas that drive

   levels of concern for this thread. (1) non-ferrous

   plumbing/attache hardware that has a finite

   service life subjected to the as-installed,

   vibration stress levels and (2) lever moments

   which are product of mass x arm that produces

   the leverage under vibratory acceleration.



    There's nothing inherently risky about mounting

    a sensor right to the engine. It's done on cars

    all the time . . . and probably less vibration

    stress. Consider this oil pressure transducer.



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   All steel structure, short moment arm, light

   mass . . . risk approaching zero.



   Consider this one . . .



 [img]cid:.1[/img]



   Hmmm . . . fatter, longer, but still steel . . .

   probably still okay plugged right into the engine.



   But consider the installation that demands

   multiple 'sensors' . . . say one of these

   fat rascals, stuck into a brass tee-fitting opposite

   a low oil pressure warning switch. Now put

   a not-so-close brass nipple. The high risk

   joint is where the brass screws into the

   engine with all that stuff hung off the

   end.



   There's are ancillary concerns for deciding

   whether or not to mount a sensor directly

   to the engine . . . temperature and vibration

   effects on the transducer itself . . .generally

   low risk but a question to ask and answer.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  I might be wrong, but these are the questions I'd ask: How stiff is a braided oil line when it's fully pressurized while the engine is running? What does it weigh? How much vibration gets transmitted up the fairly stiff pressurized line? How does that weight & vibration affect the cantilevered *aluminum* adapters connecting it to the pressure sensor? I suspect that the cantilevered weight of the hose is more than the weight of the sensor, on its steel mounting threads, and there will still be a lot of vibration transmitted to the fittings.



 Am I mistaken? 	


   Stresses that a flexible line would put on

   the threads at the engine are minimal . . . if

   the threads are steel . . . the risks are zero.



   Risks risk sharply with high moment installations

   on rigid, brass, pot-metal or aluminum, christmas-trees.



 

   Bob . . .

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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:00 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Hi  Charlie,



My original concern for having the oil pressure sender mounted on the engine was a result of a series short time of oil pressure sender failures which were reported on the Rotax and Europa lists a number of years ago.  Due to the placement of the sender on the engine it was surmised that these were failures from the sender being repeatedly shaken during engine start and stop.  The recommendation was made by someone on the list that the sender be removed from the engine and remote mounted on the firewall to get it out of the vibrational environment of the engine.



In my case I used a length of Aeroquip 666 1/8” hose which is braided stainless steel over teflon with stainless steel fittings.  I have never weighed the line but it isn’t very heavy.  Just went out to the shop and weighed a similar length of 666 with fittings and it weighs 2 oz.  I doubt it is any stiffer pressurized than it is unpressurized.  There are no aluminum fittings connecting to the engine.  A steel AN fitting was used to connect the hose to the engine.  The weight of the hose as supported by the engine fitting is considerably less than the weight of the sender ~16 oz.  Considerably less than an ounce on the fitting.  I have confirmed that there are no vibrations being transmitted through the hose back to the sender or its fittings.  The hose seems to do a good job of absorbing rather than transmitting vibrations.



Hope this helps.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Feb 13, 2014, at 9:12 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:






I'm curious. How many pressure senders have broken *when directly mounted to the engine*? I see a lot of reports of failures when there's an extension, adapter, T fitting, etc, but there are thousands (hundreds of thousands? millions?) of those sensors that live while directly mounted on all types of automotive, industrial and a/c engines.



I might be wrong, but these are the questions I'd ask: How stiff is a braided oil line when it's fully pressurized while the engine is running? What does it weigh? How much vibration gets transmitted up the fairly stiff pressurized line? How does that weight & vibration affect the cantilevered *aluminum* adapters connecting it to the pressure sensor? I suspect that the cantilevered weight of the hose is more than the weight of the sensor, on its steel mounting threads, and there will still be a lot of vibration transmitted to the fittings.



Am I mistaken?



Charlie

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:57 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Hi Bob,



I do understand worrying about stress & vibration issues. What caught my 

attention was what appeared to be aluminum adapters on the pressure 

sensor itself, cantilevering the right angle adapter and hose away from 

the sensor's mount. I could imagine the aluminum adapters being at risk 

more than the steel threaded sensor.



What was the nature of the failures? I was envisioning the sender 

breaking off at the threads. Was it some sort of internal failure, 

instead? Most current RV-x builders do remote mount the sensor, but they 

seem to survive on a lot of motors when they are direct- mounted. If 

there is a high percentage of failures on the Rotax, I wonder if it's 

caused by the very different frequency of vibration from the Rotax, 

compared to most other engines running at constant-RPM.



Charlie



On 2/13/2014 10:57 AM, Robert Borger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi  Charlie,



 My original concern for having the oil pressure sender mounted on the engine was a result of a series short time of oil pressure sender failures which were reported on the Rotax and Europa lists a number of years ago.  Due to the placement of the sender on the engine it was surmised that these were failures from the sender being repeatedly shaken during engine start and stop.  The recommendation was made by someone on the list that the sender be removed from the engine and remote mounted on the firewall to get it out of the vibrational environment of the engine.



 In my case I used a length of Aeroquip 666 1/8” hose which is braided stainless steel over teflon with stainless steel fittings.  I have never weighed the line but it isn’t very heavy.  Just went out to the shop and weighed a similar length of 666 with fittings and it weighs 2 oz.  I doubt it is any stiffer pressurized than it is unpressurized.  There are no aluminum fittings connecting to the engine.  A steel AN fitting was used to connect the hose to the engine.  The weight of the hose as supported by the engine fitting is considerably less than the weight of the sender ~16 oz.  Considerably less than an ounce on the fitting.  I have confirmed that there are no vibrations being transmitted through the hose back to the sender or its fittings.  The hose seems to do a good job of absorbing rather than transmitting vibrations.



 Hope this helps.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

 Bob Borger

 Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).

 Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

 3705 Lynchburg Dr.

 Corinth, TX  76208-5331

 Cel: 817-992-1117

 rlborger(at)mac.com



 On Feb 13, 2014, at 9:12 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 



 I'm curious. How many pressure senders have broken *when directly mounted to the engine*? I see a lot of reports of failures when there's an extension, adapter, T fitting, etc, but there are thousands (hundreds of thousands? millions?) of those sensors that live while directly mounted on all types of automotive, industrial and a/c engines.



 I might be wrong, but these are the questions I'd ask: How stiff is a braided oil line when it's fully pressurized while the engine is running? What does it weigh? How much vibration gets transmitted up the fairly stiff pressurized line? How does that weight & vibration affect the cantilevered *aluminum* adapters connecting it to the pressure sensor? I suspect that the cantilevered weight of the hose is more than the weight of the sensor, on its steel mounting threads, and there will still be a lot of vibration transmitted to the fittings.



 Am I mistaken?



 Charlie

kleh(at)dialupatcost.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Years ago while touring a rotax overhaul facility I noticed the vdo 

electro-mechanical pressure senders had a significant added weight 

attached to them. The story was that this was to lower the resonant 

frequency below what the engine would excite to prevent them from 

breaking off. Those engines run at twice the rpm that a Lycoming runs at.



ken



do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		   If

 there is a high percentage of failures on the Rotax, I wonder if it's

 caused by the very different frequency of vibration from the Rotax,

 compared to most other engines running at constant-RPM.



 Charlie

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

Charlie,



Yes, there are Al fittings on the sender in the pictures.  They were only for test fitting purposes.  Matter of fact, the installation ended up quite different from the build pictures.  I ended up using a longer length of 666 which was routed over the engine to the sensor.  It was covered in firesleeve & heat shield and tied off a couple times along the way.  I also used steel fittings on the sensor.  The aircraft is down for some repair work and Annual Condition Inspection so I was able to take some pictures today.

[img]cid:5A82E680-55F2-4062-A706-C04743AD60C9[/img]

[img]cid:E14A28D5-58F4-43DA-9410-C9006979AA2B[/img]

Vibration transmitted to the sensor is pretty close to zero.

The oil pressure senders died from internal failures.  The either stopped sending or sent invalid readings.  There were no physical failures of the attachment to the engine.  Those only seemed to occur when additional fittings were installed between the sender and oil pump.

As was pointed out in another e-mail, a brass weight ring was added to the sender to modify the harmonic frequency and reduce vibration issues.  I don’t know if this was effective or not.  Haven’t seen any complaints of oil pressure sender failures for a couple year.  

Yes, there are much different vibration issues with the Rotax.  Cruise RPM in a 91X is 5000 to 5500 RPM.  There’s a 2.43:1 gearbox to the prop so it is turning at .41 of the engine speed.  All these things make for a challenging vibrational environment.

I’m presently building a Little Toot Sport Biplane and I will probably direct mount the oil pressure sender to the engine as it is a Lycoming IO-320.

Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



On Feb 13, 2014, at 12:56 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>



Hi Bob,



I do understand worrying about stress & vibration issues. What caught my attention was what appeared to be aluminum adapters on the pressure sensor itself, cantilevering the right angle adapter and hose away from the sensor's mount. I could imagine the aluminum adapters being at risk more than the steel threaded sensor.



What was the nature of the failures? I was envisioning the sender breaking off at the threads. Was it some sort of internal failure, instead? Most current RV-x builders do remote mount the sensor, but they seem to survive on a lot of motors when they are direct- mounted. If there is a high percentage of failures on the Rotax, I wonder if it's caused by the very different frequency of vibration from the Rotax, compared to most other engines running at constant-RPM.



Charlie

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: engine pressure senders installation

At 12:56 PM 2/13/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>



Hi Bob,

What was the nature of the failures? I was envisioning the sender 

breaking off at the threads.


	


    Yes . . . that's the bottom end of the moment arm

    upon which mass of the attached hardware is vibrated.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Was it some sort of internal failure, instead? Most current RV-x 

builders do remote mount the sensor, but they seem to survive on a 

lot of motors when they are direct- mounted. If there is a high 

percentage of failures on the Rotax, I wonder if it's caused by the 

very different frequency of vibration from the Rotax, compared to 

most other engines running at constant-RPM.


	


    The short, low mass sensor is just fine threaded into

    it's designated port on the engine. It's the extension

    with non-ferrous materials and adding more mass on the

    end that sets up the scenario for failure.

   Bob . . .

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