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mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:22 am Post subject: Schematic Z-17 questions |
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I am rewiring a VeriEze (with O-200A) and putting in a new panel.
Weight is always a factor and I am trying to keep it light, but after
discussions with the gang, I am now convinced that a starting system (vs
prop start) is next to mandatory.
So the simplest system that meets this need is the Z-17 design, but I would
like to use the B&C 200G (12amp) alternator instead of the SD8 (noted in the
diagram).
Is it a drop in substitute without modification to the wiring diagram?
And is the 4AWG wiring for starting and primary ground wires still
sufficient?
Thanks,
Matt Stecher
VariEze N54EG rebuild
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: Schematic Z-17 questions |
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At 01:21 PM 5/18/2014, you wrote:
| Quote: |
<mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net>
I am rewiring a VeriEze (with O-200A) and putting in a new panel.
Weight is always a factor and I am trying to keep it light, but after
discussions with the gang, I am now convinced that a starting system (vs
prop start) is next to mandatory.
So the simplest system that meets this need is the Z-17 design, but I would
like to use the B&C 200G (12amp) alternator instead of the SD8 (noted in the
diagram).
|
The SD-8 and the 200G are interchangeable schematic
wise. Are you going with light weight starter too?
Are you vfr and keeping magnetos? If so, you COULD
consider a really light lithium battery mounted
aft such that all your fat wires are short.
| Quote: | Is it a drop in substitute without modification to the wiring diagram?
|
Yes . . .
| Quote: | And is the 4AWG wiring for starting and primary ground wires still
sufficient?
|
Might even drop to 6AWG if the leads were short as
hypothesized above . . .
But if your battery has to go up front, you can probably
get by with 4AWG in warm weather country . . . which
may be a given with the VeriEze . . .
Bob . . .
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:05 pm Post subject: Schematic Z-17 questions |
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There is also a gotcha in cold weather with lithium batteries - they
don't work well (sorry I can't be specific to the type). When the
battery has cold soaked at around freezing it will hardly turn over an
O-360. But, a minute or two after an attempted start - I'm told 5
seconds of trying and barely cranking - the battery will have warmed
itself up and happily spins the engine into life.
Batteries on the firewall will probably be happy for the rest of the day
(and also respond to the hair dryer in the oil door trick for 10 minutes
while pre-flighting). Batteries in the aft fuselage will require the
'failed start' technique each time. No very scientific data or
information on a minimum temperature when this technique doesn't work.
Peter
On 19/05/2014 20:27, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: |
<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
At 10:27 AM 5/19/2014, you wrote:
> You mention a light weight lithium battery. This is the second time I
> have seen something about use of lithium batteries in airplanes. I
> would like to hear more about things like reliability, things to be
> aware of, the actual storage capacity (rather than just cranking
> amps) and of course, after the 787 battery issues, fire potential.
> The idea using a 3 or 4 pound battery is very appealing.
There's a 4-part series coming out in Kitplanes
about batteries with an emphasis on evaluation of
lithium products for suitability to task in aircraft.
Turns out that not all lithium products are the
same . . . and it goes deeper than selection of
the least-hazardous chemistry.
MOST commercial off the shelf examples have no
battery management system yet they claim to be
drop-in replacements for lead-acid. The claims
go even further to suggest that a 3# lithium battery
has an 18 ah 'lead acid equivalency' . . . when
the 18 ah battery weighs in at 15 pounds or more.
"Lead acid equivalency" speaks to engine cranking
ability and glosses over shortfalls in CAPACITY.
For a vfr airplane having an engine that is free
of electrical dependencies, one may down-size a
battery with little attention to capacity. If getting
the engine started is your only concern, then the
lithium chemistry can offer some enticing weight
savings.
But if you have any concerns for battery-only
endurance, then be sure the device you pick
has the capacity to meet your alternator-out
endurance requirements.
It also turns out that optimal battery service
life is achieved by cycling the battery's level
of charge between 30 and 90%. By artificially
limiting available energy on a cycle-by-cycle
basis (most hybrid cars do this), then they
battery can last a long time.
Ideally, one never runs the ship's battery
down . . . but it's there if you need it.
So if you set the bus voltage to limit the
battery to 90% of maximum capacity, then
it should last a long time.
But if you ever run it down on purpose or
accidently . . . then maximizing the battery's
serviceability usually calls for recharging
with a battery management system (BMS).
Folks flying the simpler, day-vfr airplanes are
encouraged to experiment with the current offerings
of lithium technology
http://tinyurl.com/nlamrrw
This battery claims to crank as well as a 16-18
a.h lead-acid at one 6th the weight. At that price,
it almost certainly has no internal BMS.
On the other hand, this 2.2 pound battery claims
400+ amps cranking ability . . . and I believe
it is fitted with a full-time, capable battery
management system.
http://tinyurl.com/lcegge5
Bob . . .
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mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 6:36 pm Post subject: Schematic Z-17 questions |
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Thanks for your responses Bob,
I have purchased an Aerovolts 12 cell lithium battery to give a try. It is
billed as the choice for cranking an O-200 and is 4.4"x3.4"x4" and 2.5 lbs.
I am shooting for an aft installation and as you said that will let me keep
my heavy wires short. I would like to put it in the main spar, but not sure
about drilling holes in it to run the wires out or for mounting the battery.
If that does not work I am looking at the hell hole above the landing gear
attachment.
If the aft locations prove more trouble than they are worth than I am
looking at the traditional battery spot in the nose and 2AWG wires. It warm
most of the time here near Houston, but we do get a week or two worth of
almost cold weather.
Regards,
Matt Stecher
Katy TX
Varieze N54EG rebuild
Time: 11:47:50 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic Z-17 questions
At 01:21 PM 5/18/2014, you wrote:
| Quote: | <mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net>
I am rewiring a VeriEze (with O-200A) and putting in a new panel.
Weight is always a factor and I am trying to keep it light, but after
discussions with the gang, I am now convinced that a starting system
(vs prop start) is next to mandatory.
So the simplest system that meets this need is the Z-17 design, but I
would like to use the B&C 200G (12amp) alternator instead of the SD8
(noted in the diagram).
|
The SD-8 and the 200G are interchangeable schematic
wise. Are you going with light weight starter too?
Are you vfr and keeping magnetos? If so, you COULD
consider a really light lithium battery mounted
aft such that all your fat wires are short.
| Quote: | Is it a drop in substitute without modification to the wiring diagram?
|
Yes . . .
| Quote: | And is the 4AWG wiring for starting and primary ground wires still
sufficient?
|
Might even drop to 6AWG if the leads were short as
hypothesized above . . .
But if your battery has to go up front, you can probably
get by with 4AWG in warm weather country . . . which
may be a given with the VeriEze . . .
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: Schematic Z-17 questions |
|
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At 09:33 PM 5/20/2014, you wrote:
| Quote: |
<mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net>
Thanks for your responses Bob,
I have purchased an Aerovolts 12 cell lithium battery to give a try. It is
billed as the choice for cranking an O-200 and is 4.4"x3.4"x4" and 2.5 lbs.
|
Hmmmm . . . I'd sure like to do a family of
cap check curves on it . . .
I've looked over their website. They seem to offer
a 'special charger' for 'improved life' but also
says 'no special charger necessary'.
Did any paperwork come with the battery that
cautions about deep discharge and/or making sure
the bus voltage is not too high?
| Quote: | I am shooting for an aft installation and as you said that will let me keep
my heavy wires short. I would like to put it in the main spar, but not sure
about drilling holes in it to run the wires out or for mounting the battery.
If that does not work I am looking at the hell hole above the landing gear
attachment.
If the aft locations prove more trouble than they are worth than I am
looking at the traditional battery spot in the nose and 2AWG wires. It warm
most of the time here near Houston, but we do get a week or two worth of
almost cold weather.
|
4AWG is about 300 micro-ohms per foot WARM (160F
from cranking). Assuming 24' round trip, a 200A
cranking current will toss off 1.44 volts in the
wire. 2AWG is 200 micro-ohms per foot and wouldn't
warm up as much . . . so figure about 0.9 volts
in wire drop for a net savings of about 0.5 volts
out of a total of 9-10 volts at the starter motor
terminals. 4AWG would probably be fine.
Bob . . .
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michaelagarmon(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 1:21 am Post subject: Schematic Z-17 questions |
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Matt,
I am not sure if you should drill holes in the Vari-EZ spar, but I know that the Cozy spar should not have any holes. I plan on using clickbonds or something equivalent inside my spar. I plan on using them on the firewall to minimize the holes drilled in the firewall.
Michael Garmon
Sent from Samsung tablet
-------- Original message --------
From: Matt Stecher <mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: 05/20/2014 9:33 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic Z-17 questions
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Stecher" <mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net>
Thanks for your responses Bob,
I have purchased an Aerovolts 12 cell lithium battery to give a try. It is
billed as the choice for cranking an O-200 and is 4.4"x3.4"x4" and 2.5 lbs.
I am shooting for an aft installation and as you said that will let me keep
my heavy wires short. I would like to put it in the main spar, but not sure
about drilling holes in it to run the wires out or for mounting the battery.
If that does not work I am looking at the hell hole above the landing gear
attachment.
If the aft locations prove more trouble than they are worth than I am
looking at the traditional battery spot in the nose and 2AWG wires. It warm
most of the time here near Houston, but we do get a week or two worth of
almost cold weather.
Regards,
Matt Stecher
Katy TX
Varieze N54EG rebuild
Time: 11:47:50 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schematic Z-17 questions
At 01:21 PM 5/18/2014, you wrote:
| Quote: | <mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net>
I am rewiring a VeriEze (with O-200A) and putting in a new panel.
Weight is always a factor and I am trying to keep it light, but after
discussions with the gang, I am now convinced that a starting system
(vs prop start) is next to mandatory.
So the simplest system that meets this need is the Z-17 design, but I
would like to use the B&C 200G (12amp) alternator instead of the SD8
(noted in the diagram).
|
The SD-8 and the 200G are interchangeable schematic
wise. Are you going with light weight starter too?
Are you vfr and keeping magnetos? If so, you COULD
consider a really light lithium battery mounted
aft such that all your fat wires are short.
| Quote: | Is it a drop in substitute without modification to the wiring diagram?
|
Yes . . .
| Quote: | And is the 4AWG wiring for starting and primary ground wires still
sufficient?
|
Might even drop to 6AWG if the leads were short as
hypothesized above . . .
But if your battery has to go up front, you can probably
get by with 4AWG in warm weather country . . . which
may be a given with the VeriEze . . .
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: Schematic Z-17 questions |
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At 06:06 PM 5/19/2014, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Bob. Good info and I will watch for the Kitplanes articles. I
hear your concern about capacity and I was wondering about that. I
am thinking about an electrically dependent airplane with EFII but
also thinking about two alternators like your figure Z-13/8.
|
Z-13/8 (or similar) is probably the-best-
we-know-how-to-do for the down-sizing of
battery capacity.
I think I recall writing that mounting the
SD-8 alternator on the vacated vacuum pump
pad validates common practice in both the
automotive and light aircraft worlds of
flogging the battery until it simply won't
crank the engine any more.
When your airplane is fitted with THREE sources
of energy of which only one is a battery, then
you're firmer ground in spite of a flagging
battery.
By extension we can assert that once the battery
is relieved of duties for flight in an endurance
mode, then the battery can be (1) routinely flogged
to death or (2) down-sized as long as it still
cranks the engine.
But we're still not very smart with respect to
cost of ownership for these little power-houses.
The satisfaction of having saved a few pounds
may flag in the face of extra-ordinary maintenance
to protect their easily insulted physics.
In one of the Kitplanes articles I posed a question
along the lines: "Okay you've shed 10 pounds of
empty weight and freed up 30 cubic inches of volume.
How will you used those newly acquired assets?
Store sandwiches in the newly opened volume?
Will a ten pound delta get you off fields you
could not operate out of before . . . can you
now climb over taller mountains?"
Burt Rutan told us that it takes about 5 pounds
of fuel to carry one pound of airplane around
the world. So leaving 1 pound behind gave them
either 6# lighter gross at t/o . . . or freed
up nearly a gallon of gas for end of flight
endurance . . . which in that airplane was about
100 miles!
Those are the discussions and experiments we can
be doing amongst members of the List . . . and
Kitplanes offers us a forum to share our findings.
Bob . . .
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