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dave.thompson(at)verizon.
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 Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Panel layout |
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Bob,
Thank you for all your kind words of wisdom. My question was well answered.
A few clarification notes: I am 49; I have not flown for 23 years. We lost the Quickie in the Arizona desert enroot to the 1980 Oshkosh air show. Nobody was hurt but she was no longer airworthy. We sold the B1RD several years later and I have not flown since due to financial reasons. I do plan to make removable panels for future upgrades.
It’s cool that my guesses are very similar to what you have described. Attached for you Bob is one of my most favorite layouts for your entertainment and suggestions. I will post a photo-share for the other guys. I drew it using Microsoft Visio. Anyone that wants a copy of my templates is welcome to them. The instruments are copied from websites which means that some of them may be copywrited. With this in mind, I will not sell them, I will only share them. The templates are also very large file sizes so they are too large to e-mail. If someone has an FTP server that is willing to host the templates, please let me know so I can make them available to whoever wants them. I have a great deal of other instruments & avionics templates not used in my plan, all divided by the manufacturer or type.
My apologies if some of you think this is too far of subject. It seems to me that if we are talking about aeroelectric, we are also building panels.
Dave Thompson
Westminster, CA
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com [mailto:BobsV35B(at)aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:44 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Cc: dave.thompson(at)verizon.net
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout
In a message dated 6/24/2006 5:30:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, dave.thompson(at)verizon.net writes:
| Quote: |
I am 23 years out of currency with only 125 hours in C-150 & C-172s plus 5 hours in my fathers Quickie and about 50 unlogged hours in our B1RD ultralight. I am tooling up (both physically and mentally) to build a 601XL/Corvair. I plan to get current again in the rental 601XL at the local FBO when mine gets close to flying. |
Good Morning Dave,
First, let me welcome you to the list and congratulate you for the accomplishments you have managed at such a young age. We need more folks like you if General Aviation is to survive at all. There are too many like me around and too few like you!
May I suggest that you consider making your instrument panel easily removable?
Your needs and your capabilities will change as you step through the various stages of flight.
By making a removable panel section, you can make the changes relatively painless when your needs do change.
One quick comment on instrument size. You mentioned three and three eights inch standard size. If you were referring to over all size, that IS close to the average, but if you were referring to the opening in the panel, three and ONE eighths inch is the norm. The overall size of the various instruments does vary quite a bit, especially on modern units. Back in the olden days, especially during WWII, the sizes were very much standardized for other than the attitude gyro and the directional gyro which were relatively large.
Back to the placement of individual instruments.
The so called standard six pack was a development of the late fifties and early sixties. Using the basic instruments of the day, tests were conducted to determine ease of use for IFR flight. What is optimum for IFR flight is not necessarily optimum for VFR flight. Not only that, but the type of navigational instruments installed does affect the optimum placement of the instruments used for IFR reference.
The tests showed that a human eye can move two "standard" instruments to the right or left about as easily as it can check one instrument up or down. Therefore, if you wish to add another instrument to the "Six Pack" it is more efficient to add it to one side or the other than it is to add it above or below. That rule is somewhat dependent on just where the needed information is located on the instrument being used.
One example would be the placement of the vertical speed instrument, if one is to be installed (It is NOT a required instrument for IFR flight, but most of us like to have one.)
I like to put the altimeter to the right of whatever instrument is my primary reference instrument. I then try to place the VSI immediately to the right of the altimeter. The needle on the VSI is generally hinged on the right side of the instrument which means the part that moves is on the left. By placing the VSI to the right of the altimeter, the distance between the VSI needle and the altimeter is reduced. That is a "Good Thing"!
A little more history. In the days when we were not allowed to use an attitude gyro in instrument flight training, the most common arrangement was for the T&B to be in the middle and in the prime real estate of the panel with the altimeter on one side and the airspeed on the other. When the standard panel was pushed by the authorities in the fifties, they suggested that the airspeed be on the left and the altimeter on the right. That is the way most current panels are laid out.
The VSI instrument , as I said before will be easiest to read if it is to the right of the altimeter for basic flight maneuvers, but if you decide to shoot some sort of a vertically guided approach such as an ILS or LPV, it is nice to have VSI to the right of the glide path needle. You see, we have already come up with two different possibilities for the VSI and it is not a required instrument!
That is why I believe you should plan for change in the future. Don't lock yourself into a fixed panel if you can possibly avoid doing so.
Next comment. I believe the future is in the glass cockpit. The placement of auxiliary instruments is going to be dependent on which instruments are included within the glass chosen and what style of navigation is to be used.
One of the things that made it fairly easy for we ancient folks to successfully fly IFR without any Attitude Gyro or Directional Gyro was that we navigated primarily by listening. We did not have to change frequencies or use our eyes to tell which way to turn.
We just listened to the A and N signals, developed a mental picture of our location and made turns using the turn needle as appropriate. We hardly ever had to talk on the radio and we never had to take time away from flying the airplane to tune a radio, adjust a CDI course or fiddle with a GPS.
What does all of this have to do with your panel layout?
You must first decide what you want to do with your airplane. After that, you can decide on instruments to be used and the placement thereof.
See why I think the panel should easily removable?
Since you do want to move in stages and I believe you are interested in gaining knowledge, my suggestion would be that you plan to have a new Gee Whiz combo glass panel as the primary use of panel space. If it were my airplane and you were one of my grandchildren, I would suggest that you start out by installing a nominal "three and one eighth inch" size T&B in the center of your first panel. To the right of that, an altimeter, and to the right of that, a VSI if you want one. To the left of the T&B, I would suggest the airspeed indicator. To the left of the AS, a clock.
Directly above the T&B , I would place a nice stable old fashioned "Whiskey Compass."
That would give you the panel we all used when we first started to actively fly IFR. It would also provide a very complete back up to whatever glass you decide to use in the future. When you decide on the glass, it would replace the whiskey compass. In these days of GPS, the whiskey compass and the clock are primarily things to remind us of whence we came!
While you are waiting for the funds to purchase the more modern stuff, you can practice flying with the T&B and gain the confidence in the instrument that will allow you to use it as a last ditch survival tool should it ever be needed.
It is a LOT easier to learn to fly with a T&B if the panel has no other information vying for your attention!
One more point. I do not recommend VFR flight at night unless you have the capability to fly the airplane by reference to instruments.
Since there is no requirement for instruments during night flight, any instrument you have that will keep you right side up is legal to use and will do the job. If you elect to start off with nothing other than a basic Dynon unit, that would certainly be a very wise choice and would probably be more than adequate for night flight. If you desire to start out with a T&B, it will require that you take training and gain a considerable amount of skill before it will serve as a night time instrument.
The T&B is a LOT cheaper and it has a known reliability factor, but it does take training to learn how to use it with enough confidence such that you will use it to stay alive.
My Stearman is not equipped for IFR flight, but I do fly it at night. Because of that, I have it equipped with two T&Bs. One is vacuum powered and the other is electric.
If I do lose visual reference at night, I know that I can keep it right side up until I am once again able to fly the airplane via visual reference. The failure mode of a T&B is such that it is very easy to tell whether or not it is working.
If it wiggles, it is working.
If it stops wiggling, it is not working. No leans and no conflicting information is provided by the failed instrument.
For what it is worth, I have a two and a quarter inch electric T&B in the lower center of the panel. Above that is the three and an eighth inch vacuum T&B. Above the vacuum T&B is a relatively large whiskey compass. To the right of the vacuum T&B is an altimeter and to the right of that is a VSI. To the left of the vacuum T&B is the airspeed. To the left of that is a G meter. I also have a Garmin 295 that is mounted where it can be easily referenced without interfering with my view of the installed panel.
Hopefully, by the time you are ready to actually fly at night or IFR, 'Lectric Bob, or someone else, will have developed an autopilot that will make the ability to fly by reference to the instruments an ancient and unnecessary art. In the meantime, think of all the fun you will have learning the intricacies of the T&B.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Do Not Archive
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Panel layout |
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In a message dated 6/24/2006 1:37:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, dave.thompson(at)verizon.net writes:
| Quote: | | A few clarification notes: I am 49; I have not flown for 23 years. We lost the Quickie in the Arizona desert enroute to the 1980 Oshkosh air show. Nobody was hurt but she was no longer airworthy. We sold the B1RD several years later and I have not flown since due to financial reasons. I do plan to make removable panels for future upgrades. |
Good Afternoon Dave,
Well, it appears that you are the age of our younger children rather than our grandchildren. Still happy to see you back in aviation.
Please accept my apologies for not reading your original message more carefully.
The way you young people can do things with a computer is absolutely fantastic. Your layout looks beautiful.
Of course, I would eliminate that Turn Coordinator and replace it with a Turn and Bank Instrument, but I guess that is what started this whole discussion!
Thank you for the very kind words and the picture of your proposed panel. Do you think you could spread the altitude and airspeed out far enough to use a Dynon in lieu of the attitude gyro?
Do Not Archive
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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